Brexit Watch

As the report says, many of the companies not taking up full passporting rights may not have been doing much business before. What it also doesn’t confirm is the value of those taking up or not the rights offered. If the nearly 60% taking up rights account for 95% of the value, there’s no problem but if the 40% not taking up rights represent 95% there’s a serious problem. Yet another pointless piece of journalism for me from an anti Brexit reporter.

As for your “inward investment” piece, it’s quoting 2018 against 2017 when we’d just voted to leave the EU and not even left yet. It’s 2022 tomorrow Lusty so can’t you find something that is at least up to date and takes account of the Pandemic which has hit everyone? On inward investment recently, I was referring to US companies into the City not generally.

Anyway, nearly midnight so happy New Year to everyone on Nuts.

Whitesince63 wrote:It’s 2022 tomorrow Lusty so can’t you find something that is at least up to date and takes account of the Pandemic which has hit everyone? On inward investment recently, I was referring to US companies into the City not generally.

Anyway, nearly midnight so happy New Year to everyone on Nuts.

Happy New Year White - and everyone else! Finally got rid of the visitors

Something more recent? Here you go...

"One year to the day since the UK finally left the European Union, the people of Britain believe Brexit has done the country more harm than good, according to a new poll. (Savanta)

Almost six out of 10 (57 per cent) believe Boris Johnson lied to them about what Brexit would be like during the bitter referendum campaign of 2016.

And by a clear margin, they said that the Remain campaign’s forecasts of damage to the economy and increased red tape from Brexit have proved more accurate than the Leave campaign’s promises, such as the claim on Mr Johnson’s bus that EU withdrawal would deliver £350m a week for the NHS.

More than half of those questioned (51 per cent) want a referendum on rejoining at some point, with 39 per cent saying it should come in the next five years, compared to just 32 per cent who say the issue should never be reopened.

The figures represent a significant blow to Mr Johnson’s claim – central to his platform at the last election – that EU withdrawal would deliver a boost to Britain and encourage a new spirit of confidence, optimism and unity.
In a message released today to mark the anniversary, the prime minister said that his Trade and Cooperation Agreement (TCA) with the EU had allowed UK companies to “seize new trading opportunities” around the world and freed the government to establish a regulatory regime suited to British interests.

However, the bulk of the 70 trade deals which he hailed as a benefit of Brexit were no more than “rollover” agreements maintaining arrangements which the UK already enjoyed as an EU member, while government figures suggest that others with Australia and New Zealand will boost GDP by only a tiny fraction of 1 per cent, compared to the 4 per cent loss expected from leaving the EU.

When asked what effect Brexit had so far had on the UK’s interests generally, some 38 per cent said it had been damaging, against just 27 per cent who said it had improved matters.
Even among Leave voters, only 39 per cent said that Brexit had been good for the UK’s interests, with 34 per saying it had made no difference and 18 per cent saying it had been harmful.

Judging whether Brexit had worsened or improved a range of aspects of British life, in every case respondents answered in the negative.
A clear majority (59 per cent) said EU withdrawal had damaged relations with the UK’s European neighbours, compared to 14 per cent who said they had improved.
More than half (51 per cent) said Brexit had made it more difficult to access a range of goods and services, compared to 18 per cent who said availability had improved.
Some 45 per cent said the burden of bureaucracy on UK businesses and citizens had increased as a result of leaving the EU, while just 21 per cent believed it had reduced.

On the economy generally, 44 per cent said Brexit had been harmful and 24 per cent beneficial.
Even on Britain’s ability to control its own borders – one of the central promises of the Leave campaign – just 23 per cent said Brexit had helped, against 43 per cent who said it had made matters worse.
Some 41 per cent said the UK had become less united and 24 per cent more united as a result. And 39 per cent said Britain had less global influence, compared to 23 per cent who said it had more.

Some 28 per cent said that their own ability to travel, work and study had been negatively impacted by Brexit, compared to 16 per cent who said it had been improved. And 23 per cent – almost a quarter – said it had hit their personal finances, against 19 per cent who believed Brexit had improved them.
On every count, people said that the Remain campaign in the 2016 referendum gave a more accurate picture than Leave of what Brexit would be like.
And 57 per cent said that they believed Mr Johnson lied more than he told the truth in the Brexit debate, against 26 per cent who thought the opposite.

The accuracy of the vision of Brexit painted by the two sides in the referendum campaign was calculated by subtracting the number who now think their forecasts were wrong from those who think they were right.
On Brexit’s impact on the UK overall, Leave scored +1 and Remain -22. On its outcome for Britain’s standing in the world it was -5 for Leave and +11 for Remain.
And the Remain position was judged more accurate than Leave on: the economy (Remain +7, Leave -5); the unity of the UK (Remain +14, Leave -7); disruption to everyday life (Remain +9, Leave -10); and the impact on Northern Ireland (Remain +10, Leave -19).

Support for rejoining was far higher in the poll among the younger generations, with 77 per cent of 18-24-year-olds, 73 per cent of 25-34-year-olds, 59 per cent of 35-44-year-olds and 54 per cent of 45-54-year-olds saying they would back renewed EU membership, excluding don’t knows and wouldn’t votes.
Only in older age groups would majorities vote to stay out of the EU – by 60-40 per cent among 55-64-year-olds and 65-35 per cent among over-65s.

Some 20 per cent of those questioned said they would like a referendum on rejoining the EU immediately and 19 per cent more said there should be a rerun ballot within five years. But 9 per cent said any new referendum should wait 6-10 years, 3 per cent 11-20 years and 4 per cent more than 20 years, while 32 per cent said the issue should never again be put to a public vote."

Damn fickle those Leave voters eh White?

This is just getting funnier by the day.

Today's announcement that in order to try to get a vital trade deal with India, Liz Truss is offering to open the doors of the UK to Indians as the Indian government is insisting on a relaxation of the immigration laws for their citizens as a cornerstone to the negotiations.

How ironic that the proposal is being opposed by a woman of Gujurati descent in the Cabinet called Patel.


PS: Before Brexit the UK was the fifth largest economy in the world but since then we've slipped to 6th and both France and Brazil are likely to push us further down the GDP rankings in the next 5 years so it makes sense to secure an economic and military tie with a bigger and faster growing economy (India) as the USA won't deal with us ATM, China and Russia are risky and we've just split with Germany - so there's a fair bit of pressure to make this happen which won't please the Luddites.

wanderlust wrote:I think this article in the Economist captures part of what I'm trying to say i.e. the government has to start taking some tough decisions - regardless of how unpopular they might be to some sectors of the electorate - and moreover, sticking to them. The article suggests how some of the issues could be addressed - if the government has the balls to do it.



It's time for Boris Johnson to abandon "cakeism"



A YEAR AGO, as Boris Johnson prepared to take Britain out of the European Union’s trading arrangements after an 11-month transition, he was on top of the world. The trade and co-operation agreement he had signed with the EU was, he crowed, “cakeist”—his term for deals that combine the having and eating of cake, in this case decent access to the single market and freedom to diverge from its rules. But as 2021 ended, little cake was to be had. A backbench rebellion, a stunning by-election loss and public anger at revelations that the prime minister and his colleagues partied during lockdowns in 2020 have hit his poll ratings. The year’s final blow came on December 18th, when David Frost, his chief EU negotiator, resigned, citing his frustration at the government’s failure to make progress on an ambitious post-Brexit agenda.

Some of Mr Johnson’s difficulties are tied to his personal flaws: arrogance, sloppiness and a belief that rules are for little people. But Lord Frost, for all that his bellicose approach to the EU made progress harder, was right about his central charge. On Brexit, which the Conservatives promised would kick-start a national renewal, the government is adrift. Growth has been sluggish and ejection from the single market has, as expected, harmed the country’s prospects: government forecasters put the long- run hit to productivity at around 4%. So far the government has failed to identify policies that could come close to making up for that. To regain momentum it must make tough choices and face up to their consequences.

The problem is less the type of Brexit that Britain opted for than a refusal to accept what flows from it. That is clearest in Northern Ireland. Britain chose to maximise sovereignty and national control, at the cost of leaving the EU’s trading system. The EU, mindful of Northern Ireland’s fragile peace, offered a special deal whereby the province remained, in effect, in the single market and customs union so as to avoid a destabilising hard border with the Republic of Ireland. That meant customs checks in the Irish Sea—an outcome spelt out in the treaty that Britain chose to sign, but which Lord Frost subsequently declared unacceptable and tried, fruitlessly, to unpick.



A similar failure to make a choice and stick to it is evident in Britain’s vacillations between the two options of either escaping the EU’s regulatory pull or staying in tight orbit around the single market and its rules. The reason is partly electoral. Brexit’s most ardent salesmen dreamed of lighter taxes and looser regulations—of Britain becoming Singapore-on-Thames. But many voters rather like the EU’s social-democratic model. Indeed, since leaving the EU, Britain has in some ways become more European. It has raised the minimum wage sharply and increased taxes to pay for social care. If Mr Johnson’s promise to “level up” Britain means anything, it is European-style industrial policy and grand public works.
A dose of realism is needed. On Northern Ireland, that means accepting that for the province to be both inside and outside the EU’s trading arrangements is impossible, and moving on. Britain and the EU can then work to minimise the downsides, such as onerous customs checks—and to maximise the upsides by helping businesses in one of the United Kingdom’s poorest regions profit from their privileged access to the EU’s giant market.
On when to diverge from Europe, Britain needs to assess the costs and benefits, and then move decisively. Often, that will mean concluding that bespoke national regulations, no matter how objectively better than EU ones, are impractical, pointless or impossible to sell to voters. EU regulations on data protection are de facto global standards. In the chemicals industry so much of British trade is with the EU that many British firms have to follow its rules to the letter. When it comes to food safety and animal welfare, Britons like the EU’s high standards and will oppose any relaxation great enough to boost productivity.
In other cases Britain can diverge from the EU in a way that packs a punch. It would not be hard to craft something better than the EU’s wasteful and environmentally damaging common agricultural policy. Competition policy and state-aid rules can also offer opportunities. Nimbler regulation, tax policies and visa rules can help London thrive as a global financial hub.

Taking the cake

Some of the biggest boosts to growth, however, would come from policies that were possible within the EU, such as market-driven reforms to the health service and looser planning rules. These will be hard to sell in the prosperous Tory shires and working-class northern constituencies that voted Conservative in 2019 to “get Brexit done”. Mr Johnson’s cake-based campaign made no mention of tough choices. But unless his government starts making some, Brexit’s future will hold little but crumbs.

Good article, thanks for posting. It nails the point for me, Brexiteers need to accept that they were sold a fantasy and compromise is required. Until the reality of what’s possible is faced the delusions will continue and an unachievable NI deal will continue to be pursued in public by Tories desperate not to disappoint the flat earthers.

Truss is a nightmare appointment in this regard, she simply won’t make an unpopular decision - expect more Frost like posturing from her and zero progress.

T.R.O.Y. wrote:

Good article, thanks for posting. It nails the point for me, Brexiteers need to accept that they were sold a fantasy and compromise is required. Until the reality of what’s possible is faced the delusions will continue and an unachievable NI deal will continue to be pursued in public by Tories desperate not to disappoint the flat earthers.

Truss is a nightmare appointment in this regard, she simply won’t make an unpopular decision - expect more Frost like posturing from her and zero progress.

Yes, agreed.....great Economist article.

Keep trying guys, you might convince yourselves you were right one day. Lusty, of course your latest poll would show figures like that, how could it not? If you asked me those questions, I’d answer negatively because the situations poor at the moment but you’re completely ignoring the fact that the EU is stubbornly rejecting to discuss terms in “good faith.”

The EU have made it perfectly clear that they have no intention of agreeing anything that would further the interests of the U.K. instead intent on showing other potential leavers what happens when you dare to leave their club. We knew that’s how they would react but hoped they wouldn’t. It won’t work though and the EU WILL succeed eventually in cutting off their nose to spite their face, as exports to the U.K. continue to fall as our companies find new suppliers. They are already doing this instead of fighting with the EU red tape and bureaucracy.

You just carry on the negativity if that’s how you see it but if you seriously think that the U.K. would ever vote to go back in you’re kidding yourself. The EU without our funding is ruined. You can see that with the Germans who are refusing to fund the Southern European states they have bankrupted with their ridiculous single currency decision. Since Brexit the number of new start up businesses in the U.K. is more than both France and Germany combined and the inflow of capital into new business increasing quickly. Hopefully as the Covid problems subside the government can concentrate on the new City regulations, trade deals, immigration and the levelling up agenda, all of which have taken second place over the last two years. It’s a pointless argument really Lusty because only time will tell but you keep looking back if you want whilst the rest of us look forward.

Whitesince63 wrote:Keep trying guys, you might convince yourselves you were right one day. Lusty, of course your latest poll would show figures like that, how could it not? If you asked me those questions, I’d answer negatively because the situations poor at the moment but you’re completely ignoring the fact that the EU is stubbornly rejecting to discuss terms in “good faith.”

The EU have made it perfectly clear that they have no intention of agreeing anything that would further the interests of the U.K. instead intent on showing other potential leavers what happens when you dare to leave their club. We knew that’s how they would react but hoped they wouldn’t. It won’t work though and the EU WILL succeed eventually in cutting off their nose to spite their face, as exports to the U.K. continue to fall as our companies find new suppliers. They are already doing this instead of fighting with the EU red tape and bureaucracy.

You just carry on the negativity if that’s how you see it but if you seriously think that the U.K. would ever vote to go back in you’re kidding yourself. The EU without our funding is ruined. You can see that with the Germans who are refusing to fund the Southern European states they have bankrupted with their ridiculous single currency decision. Since Brexit the number of new start up businesses in the U.K. is more than both France and Germany combined and the inflow of capital into new business increasing quickly. Hopefully as the Covid problems subside the government can concentrate on the new City regulations, trade deals, immigration and the levelling up agenda, all of which have taken second place over the last two years. It’s a pointless argument really Lusty because only time will tell but you keep looking back if you want whilst the rest of us look forward.

I think that some of the issues raised will have a huge bearing going forward - one of the key ones being that in negotiations, BOTH sides have a list of desired outcomes - a point lost on most Brexiteers I've spoken to.
It's not a matter of the EU "trying to stuff us" because everyone we try to negotiate with will want their pound of flesh especially the Americans. I was no surprise that for example India demands that we open our doors to let more Indians move to the UK and the Yanks will be wanting a chunk of the medicare sector and to flood us with products like chlorinated chicken.

By referencing the Brexit promises it highlights the stupidity of giving up a host of already negotiated deals, the fact that we have put ourselves in a weak negotiating position, that many of the promises are and always were unachievable and that the UK will have to pay a huge price for the folly of Brexit - all of which is about looking forward.

The figures above merely point out that whilst we have a pro-Brexit government, the majority of the people no longer want it so when you say "the rest of us" you are referring to a shrinking minority who support a government that is out of touch with the will of the people.

When the time came to vote on Brexit, my wife and I walked up to the polling station, having agreed that we'd vote according to the "evidence" we'd heard from "experts" and weighed it all up against the clear exaggerations, rhetoric  and lies that abounded on both sides at the time.......and wrote something similar to each other on the ballot paper, along the lines of: "How on earth are we, the ordinary members of the public, supposed to be able to judge when all the opinions of those we trust to guide us conflict with each other?!"

And now, years later, we still have no idea about whether Brexit will have been a good idea or not, but so far prospects look bleak, and we worry for our children and grandchildren.

It staggers me when folk confidently predict outcomes one way or the other.

okocha wrote:It staggers me when folk confidently predict outcomes one way or the other.

Like this do you mean...?

wanderlust wrote:I'm positive Brexit is a political con, won't deliver what was promised and is a huge f*** up that will damage the country irreparably.
I'm positive that as the temporary transitional arrangements expire people will start to feel the impact more and more and continue to turn against the government.
I'm positive that the political balance will switch as the core Brexit vote dies off and more and more young people become eligible to vote.
I'm positive that Labour needs to get their act together if the opposition vote isn't going to be split as Tory defectors move towards their personal palatable alternatives - and I'm positive that means centrism if they seek an outright majority or alliances if they can't get over the line on their own.

And having repeatedly asked Brexiteers to list the benefits of Brexit only to be told things that we already enjoyed whilst in the EU, I'm positive there are none.

How much more positive do you want me to be?

okocha wrote:When the time came to vote on Brexit, my wife and I walked up to the polling station, having agreed that we'd vote according to the "evidence" we'd heard from "experts" and weighed it all up against the clear exaggerations, rhetoric  and lies that abounded on both sides at the time.......and wrote something similar to each other on the ballot paper, along the lines of: "How on earth are we, the ordinary members of the public, supposed to be able to judge when all the opinions of those we trust to guide us conflict with each other?!"

And now, years later, we still have no idea about whether Brexit will have been a good idea or not, but so far prospects look bleak, and we worry for our children and grandchildren.

It staggers me when folk confidently predict outcomes one way or the other.

Me too, but there's no harm in sharing an opinion or belief when you're not in a position to influence a nation. Folk on here confidently predict the result of the Wanderers game every week!

wanderlust wrote:

okocha wrote:
It staggers me when folk confidently predict outcomes one way or the other.

Me too...

Hahaha!!!

It staggers you too - yet you freely admit that you do it...!!!!

Sluffy wrote:

Hahaha!!!

It staggers you too - yet you freely admit that you do it...!!!!

Are you crawling out from under your stone again? Thought it was made crystal clear that your puerile argumentative comments, irrelevant/ illogical diatribes and regularly quoting yourself as if someone else had said it just to try to start an argument wasn't welcome here?

If you insist on shit stirring, why don't you start your own thread so you can pick an argument with yourself and leave the grown ups to have a lively discussion and exchange of opinions without insulting each other? Either that or update the website so we can just put you on "ignore".

We were doing fine before you started again but you seem intent on causing trouble and not for the first time.

wanderlust wrote:

Sluffy wrote:

Hahaha!!!

It staggers you too - yet you freely admit that you do it...!!!!

Are you crawling out from under your stone again? Thought it was made crystal clear that your puerile argumentative comments, irrelevant/ illogical diatribes and regularly quoting yourself as if someone else had said it just to try to start an argument wasn't welcome here?

If you insist on shit stirring, why don't you start your own thread so you can pick an argument with yourself and leave the grown ups to have a lively discussion and exchange of opinions without insulting each other? Either that or update the website so we can just put you on "ignore".

We were doing fine before you started again but you seem intent on causing trouble and not for the first time.

Hahaha!!!!

Whitesince63 - what is it you expect the EU to budge on? The red lines have always been the same, they won’t allow a back door into the single market.

All trade blocks operate in this way, it’s not a punishment - it’s just a question the Tories have never seriously been able to answer. Be specific, what are you wanting to happen?

T.R.O.Y. wrote:Whitesince63 - what is it you expect the EU to budge on? The red lines have always been the same, they won’t allow a back door into the single market.

All trade blocks operate in this way, it’s not a punishment - it’s just a question the Tories have never seriously been able to answer. Be specific, what are you wanting to happen?

Troy, can I first say that I agree entirely on your previous post 368. Very well put sir.

On your other points, of course we don’t expect the EU to just give us the same access we had before and yes we both have well known red lines. What I do want though, is firstly for the EU to accept that under their rules, we were perfectly within our rights to leave the bloc. We did it in every way correctly and have attempted to play by the rules at all stages.

Sadly the EU both in word and deed, have attempted to stonewall the UK at every opportunity instead of adopting the “good faith” agreement in the trade deals and NI Protocol. Why no passporting rights despite the US and other countries being authorised with much less rules and regulations similarity. Why no acceptance that our standards are exactly the same as theirs in terms of most goods. Why remove the UK from joint ventures on areas like security and technology, where EU constituents will suffer without our information and expertise.

Why absolutely no attempts to physically resolve the Irish border situation using methods offered by the UK? Why are goods travelling from the U.K. to NI subject to more checks than any other country, making up 20% of all checks within the whole EU? They are perfectly within their rights to play hard ball but they don’t have to, they just choose to in order to attempt to give a lesson to any other Countries thinking of leaving. It stinks and if you can’t see that, then there’s not much more to say.

Do you really agree with the French position on fishing? We know for a fact French boats have fiddled information to get licences. Blockading Jersey, the Chanel Tunnel and threatening to cut off power don’t sound like sensible and acceptable negotiating stances to me. Of course Brexit is shot at the moment, how can it not be when the other side is determined to make it? Can you not as a Brit try to see our side for once? You voted Remain, that’s fine, it was your choice but please stop trying to label those who voted Leave as ignoring their kids and grandkids. They are the most important people in my life and I want the best for them and yours, Lustys and everyone else’s. I still believe the EU will implode, it has to and I don’t want to be part of it when it does. If sense prevailed and they agreed to ditch the Federal Europe idea and return to a trading group, I could live with rejoining, but certainly not with this selfish, bureaucratic and totally out of touch bunch of numpties.

Not sure where you get your information from White but we did sign an agreement with the EU re NI and it was our government that reneged on it, not the EU. If anyone has acted in bad faith it's been our government.

wanderlust wrote:Not sure where you get your information from White but we did sign an agreement with the EU re NI and it was our government that reneged on it, not the EU. If anyone has acted in bad faith it's been our government.

Very true, Wander.....and.....

....the fact is that no one can trust Johnson with his attempts to break/ disregard the law, his lies, denials, distraction and avoidance techniques....all likely to prove his downfall both here and abroad in the long run, as the latest opinion polls show.

wanderlust wrote:Not sure where you get your information from White but we did sign an agreement with the EU re NI and it was our government that reneged on it, not the EU. If anyone has acted in bad faith it's been our government.

For goodness sake Lusty. Yes, we signed an agreement which was crap and not much different to the one negotiated by Traitor May and certainly didn’t give us what we wanted but it was signed to get Brexit completed to both sides benefit but with agreement that negotiations would be held in good faith by both sides. That good faith has never been applied by the EU once in discussions.

Thankfully the majority of patriotic Brits now see the duplicity of the EU represented in the latest Mori poll today indicating only 24% of respondents would vote to rejoin. Not what you want to hear that is it? 🥱

Whitesince63 wrote:

Troy, can I first say that I agree entirely on your previous post 368. Very well put sir.

?

Whitesince63 wrote:

Sadly the EU both in word and deed, have attempted to stonewall the UK at every opportunity instead of adopting the “good faith” agreement in the trade deals and NI Protocol.

Pretty obvious sign of willing this though, wouldn't you agree?: https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/oct/12/eu-ready-to-scrap-most-post-brexit-checks-on-british-goods-entering-ni

Whitesince63 wrote:
Why no passporting rights despite the US and other countries being authorised with much less rules and regulations similarity.

Passporting rights are for countries in the EEA, hard Brexiteers insisted we had to leave the EEA - so what is it you want? The US does not have passporting rights, there's no punishment of the UK here.

Whitesince63 wrote:
Why no acceptance that our standards are exactly the same as theirs in terms of most goods.

Remember all that nonsense about sovereignty? You wanted to leave the single market and customs union, giving us the freedom to drop standards if we wanted to - we might be aligned now but we might not be in future.

Whitesince63 wrote:
Why remove the UK from joint ventures on areas like security and technology, where EU constituents will suffer without our information and expertise.

Because we voted to leave, you can't pick and choose what you want to be a part of.

Whitesince63 wrote:
Why absolutely no attempts to physically resolve the Irish border situation using methods offered by the UK?

What methods? We didn't propose any realistic solution, it's a fundamental flaw in the Brexit fantasy you've never been able to answer.

Whitesince63 wrote:
Why are goods travelling from the U.K. to NI subject to more checks than any other country, making up 20% of all checks within the whole EU?

Because no other EU border serves a domestic food supply chain. There's more going through it therefore there are more checks.

Whitesince63 wrote:
Can you not as a Brit try to see our side for once?

I've always seen it from our side, you believe in a fantasy world where we can do whatever we want with no compromise. Once you and the rest of the flat earthers on the leave side open their eyes we can actually have a sensible discussion about priorities.

Whitesince63 wrote:

For goodness sake Lusty. Yes, we signed an agreement which was crap and not much different to the one negotiated by Traitor May and certainly didn’t give us what we wanted but it was signed to get Brexit completed to both sides benefit but with agreement that negotiations would be held in good faith by both sides. That good faith has never been applied by the EU once in discussions.

Thankfully the majority of patriotic Brits now see the duplicity of the EU represented in the latest Mori poll today indicating only 24% of respondents would vote to rejoin. Not what you want to hear that is it? 🥱

How do you know that the EU hasn’t negotiated in good faith?

Admit it - you don’t.


The majority of patriotic  Brits voted to remain to protect our country from what is about to happen -  only to be undermined by sheep who swallowed the rhetoric of super rich people and politicians pursuing their own self-interest. 

And time will prove it was the remainders who are the real patriots.

Anyone who thinks that destroying our trade and services, Dividing our society, throwing people Into poverty and worsening our children’s future is a act of patriotism wants their head seeing to.