Brexit Watch

Oh dear, don’t really think there’s much point in my responding on this thread any more is there if you’re going to take a completely myopic view of everything Brexit. You just carry on with your negative, bitter and twisted view of things and I’ll continue my positive one then we’ll both be happy won’t we?

Brexits done now and we have to get on with it, like it or not. Expecting things to be working perfectly immediately, even without the EU’s prevarications, is just naive we were members for 50 plus years and it will take at least 5 to 10 years before we can make any educated pronouncement on how it’s gone. Anyway I won’t be posting to this thread any longer because it’s obviously a pointless exercise.

You've suggested the removal of passporting rights and checks on goods going into Ireland as being a punishment. I've given you two clear reasons for why both have happened and your answer is to not acknowledge that and leave the conversation?

Come on Whites, we're all adults - surely you can see there has to be compromise on both sides for this to work. It's on us to either solve the border of Ireland question or accept we need some level of regulation between us and the EU on goods?

Whitesince63 wrote:Oh dear, don’t really think there’s much point in my responding on this thread any more is there if you’re going to take a completely myopic view of everything Brexit. You just carry on with your negative, bitter and twisted view of things and I’ll continue my positive one then we’ll both be happy won’t we?

Brexits done now and we have to get on with it, like it or not. Expecting things to be working perfectly immediately, even without the EU’s prevarications, is just naive we were members for 50 plus years and it will take at least 5 to 10 years before we can make any educated pronouncement on how it’s gone. Anyway I won’t be posting to this thread any longer because it’s obviously a pointless exercise.

Look mate - I saw the Daily Express poll of 2300 people you referenced whereas the much larger Semanta poll estimated 53% want to rejoin.
Personally I think that any attempt to rejoin now would be very costly indeed as the damage is already done and there's little incentive for the EU to let us join anyway as we import a lot more from them than we export to them so they're making money out of us now.
Plus our government has soured the relationship so badly, even if Boris swam the channel, crawled over broken glass from Calais to Brussels and crucified himself on the steps of the EU Parliament they wouldn't let us back in.

As for a 5 to 10 years grace period - well we've already had 5 years and the situation will undoubtedly have changed even more by 10 but by then people will have adjusted to the new reality and will have nothing to compare it against.

I don't think my view is twisted - it's negative for sure as there has been absolutely nothing positive to come out of it and if you look back at my posts you'll see that I flag up new developments as they arise - if there are any genuine positive developments (excluding replacements for what we already had unless the terms are better) I'd love to hear about them and I will gladly accept that something good has come out of it.

T.R.O.Y. wrote:You've suggested the removal of passporting rights and checks on goods going into Ireland as being a punishment. I've given you two clear reasons for why both have happened and your answer is to not acknowledge that and leave the conversation?

Come on Whites, we're all adults - surely you can see there has to be compromise on both sides for this to work. It's on us to either solve the border of Ireland question or accept we need some level of regulation between us and the EU on goods?

But you’re not compromising Troy, you’re ignoring everything the UK is attempting to do and ignoring the brick wall being put up by the EU. The US and other countries have equivalence, passporting rights in other words, yet the EU rejects that possibility for the UK despite our rules and regulations being identical, obviously if we diverge that’s different but we haven’t. Clearly it doesn’t look like they will give in so we will be forced to adapt accordingly, which we will. 

The NI situation is the same. they know perfectly well the sensitivity involved and have purely weaponised the situation despite having been assured a multitude of times that the UK has no intention of installing a hard border yet there has been absolutely no attempts seen from the EU to compromise and look at both technological ideas and schemes such as trusted trader, used widely elsewhere.
Their attitude all along has been one of “we signed a deal and that’s it” despite agreeing in the deals done to negotiate on all areas in good faith. 

What I also think you’re missing is that due to the increased regulations required to both import and export, two things are happening. UK companies are deciding it’s just not worth the hassle and not only are they looking for business and suppliers in the U.K. but other countries are eyeing up the U.K. for exporting to. Similarly it’s opening up opportunities for entrepreneurs here to fill the gaps required, which long term can only be good for the U.K. 

I accept the situations dire at the moment but we will adapt and succeed as we have always done. It will take time but good jobs and good wages for Brits must be better than importing cheap Labour from Europe keeping wages and productivity low. Maybe at least that we could agree on.

As for the thread, I love debate but there comes a point Troy where when the opposite view is so entrenched in one position that it is no longer beneficial to continue. If you can’t see ANY advantages, now or future, from leaving the EU then there’s no debate and certainly no compromise.

Whitesince63 wrote:

But you’re not compromising Troy, you’re ignoring everything the UK is attempting to do and ignoring the brick wall being put up by the EU. The US and other countries have equivalence, passporting rights in other words, yet the EU rejects that possibility for the UK despite our rules and regulations being identical, obviously if we diverge that’s different but we haven’t. Clearly it doesn’t look like they will give in so we will be forced to adapt accordingly, which we will. 

The NI situation is the same. they know perfectly well the sensitivity involved and have purely weaponised the situation despite having been assured a multitude of times that the UK has no intention of installing a hard border yet there has been absolutely no attempts seen from the EU to compromise and look at both technological ideas and schemes such as trusted trader, used widely elsewhere.
Their attitude all along has been one of “we signed a deal and that’s it” despite agreeing in the deals done to negotiate on all areas in good faith. 

What I also think you’re missing is that due to the increased regulations required to both import and export, two things are happening. UK companies are deciding it’s just not worth the hassle and not only are they looking for business and suppliers in the U.K. but other countries are eyeing up the U.K. for exporting to. Similarly it’s opening up opportunities for entrepreneurs here to fill the gaps required, which long term can only be good for the U.K. 

I accept the situations dire at the moment but we will adapt and succeed as we have always done. It will take time but good jobs and good wages for Brits must be better than importing cheap Labour from Europe keeping wages and productivity low. Maybe at least that we could agree on.

As for the thread, I love debate but there comes a point Troy where when the opposite view is so entrenched in one position that it is no longer beneficial to continue. If you can’t see ANY advantages, now or future, from leaving the EU then there’s no debate and certainly no compromise.

I think it's unfair to say that the advantages and opportunities are being intentionally ignored - they are not. There is for example a huge opportunity for unemployed Brits to backfill the low paid agricultural, leisure and care sector jobs vacated by EU workers but the experience and evidence to date is that Brits refuse to do them.

I also think it's unfair to say the EU has been disingenuous in the negotiations when there is no actual evidence for that.

Is it wrong to sign a deal and insist the UK sticks to what we signed up to?

That's certainly not what Brexiteers say about the Brexit referendum - they absolutely insist we stick to it regardless of how bad the reality is or how undemocratic it is to consign a law to be unreviewable - ever.

The nub of the matter is simply that so far there hasn't been any good news, but lots of bluster - but opinions including mine (and I assume Troy's) will change if and when Brexit produces anything better than what we had.

I understand the ideology you expound White, but I think you'd agree that what is being delivered is some way from delivering the ideology sold to the British people - as things stand 5 years down the road.

Whitesince63 wrote:

But you’re not compromising Troy, you’re ignoring everything the UK is attempting to do and ignoring the brick wall being put up by the EU. The US and other countries have equivalence, passporting rights in other words, yet the EU rejects that possibility for the UK despite our rules and regulations being identical, obviously if we diverge that’s different but we haven’t. Clearly it doesn’t look like they will give in so we will be forced to adapt accordingly, which we will. 

The NI situation is the same. they know perfectly well the sensitivity involved and have purely weaponised the situation despite having been assured a multitude of times that the UK has no intention of installing a hard border yet there has been absolutely no attempts seen from the EU to compromise and look at both technological ideas and schemes such as trusted trader, used widely elsewhere.
Their attitude all along has been one of “we signed a deal and that’s it” despite agreeing in the deals done to negotiate on all areas in good faith. 

What I also think you’re missing is that due to the increased regulations required to both import and export, two things are happening. UK companies are deciding it’s just not worth the hassle and not only are they looking for business and suppliers in the U.K. but other countries are eyeing up the U.K. for exporting to. Similarly it’s opening up opportunities for entrepreneurs here to fill the gaps required, which long term can only be good for the U.K. 

I accept the situations dire at the moment but we will adapt and succeed as we have always done. It will take time but good jobs and good wages for Brits must be better than importing cheap Labour from Europe keeping wages and productivity low. Maybe at least that we could agree on.

As for the thread, I love debate but there comes a point Troy where when the opposite view is so entrenched in one position that it is no longer beneficial to continue. If you can’t see ANY advantages, now or future, from leaving the EU then there’s no debate and certainly no compromise.

Just to be clear, by both sides i meant the EU and UK not myself or you.

The EU haven't weaponised the NI border - they've stated their requirements America have also supported them in this I would add - and after 5 years of being asked the question the Brexiteers have not provided a solution - because it's a fantasy, and reality is beginning to hit.

I've given you an article which shows the EU offered to reduce custom checks by 50%, that's compromise. Frost wants complete removal of the ECJ - that's fantasy and a classic example of cakeism which has got us into this mess.

T.R.O.Y. wrote:Frost wants complete removal of the ECJ - that's fantasy and a classic example of cakeism which has got us into this mess.

I'm not wanting to get involved in this, the country voted for Brexit, Parliament had no choice but to accede to the will of the people and the government delivered it.

Everything else is either splitting hairs or just crying over spilt milk.

But the point about Frost and his objection to the ECJ did make sense to me.

If you go back to how the constitution works, then the ECJ is to the EU as to how the Supreme Court is to the UK government.

We are now following Brexit an independent nation.

So if you flip the argument, and the dispute needs resolving between the EU and UK, would the EU be happy for 'our' judiciary (Supreme Court) to be the final arbiter?

Clearly they would not.

Seems to me the fairest way is to have a completely independent arbiter to both sides.

Whether there is one who would undertake such a role, or if we've waived away such rights may be another matter but on the face of it, there are two parties to the agreement and the judiciary of one of those parties has the final decision!

Hardly appears equitable and fair does it?

Sluffy wrote:

I'm not wanting to get involved in this

Having tried to get involved 4 times now

T.R.O.Y. wrote:

Just to be clear, by both sides i meant the EU and UK not myself or you.

The EU haven't weaponised the NI border - they've stated their requirements America have also supported them in this I would add - and after 5 years of being asked the question the Brexiteers have not provided a solution - because it's a fantasy, and reality is beginning to hit.

I've given you an article which shows the EU offered to reduce custom checks by 50%, that's compromise. Frost wants complete removal of the ECJ - that's fantasy and a classic example of cakeism which has got us into this mess.

Why is it fantasy to want to control the law in your own country? Would the USA, Canada, Australia or any other sovereign country accept it? Of course not and neither must we. When we voted for Brexit, it was to LEAVE the EU, not still tied to its law courts. The EU have played NI for all its worth and continue to do so, also being fortunate to have a pseudo Irish nitwit in the White House, aware of the strength of the Irish vote in the US. If we hadn’t spent 3 years being sold down the river by Traitor May and instead a proper Brexiteer been in charge, we wouldn’t have ended up with the Irish Protocol in the first place.

I fully accept that the EU saw an opportunity with the Irish border and have milked it for all its worth. When you consider the minimal amount of trade represented across the border in Ireland, it’s ridiculous how much effort they have put into enforcing it. Right from the start when they dictated to May what they would discuss and when, it was clear how they would play it and the naive bint fell right into it because she never really wanted to leave.

In a negotiation, both sides put their case forward and agree on an agenda. That includes red lines but not a dictat that unless MY agenda is adhered to, we won’t talk. That didn’t happen with the EU. They threatened not to even start talks until the U.K. agreed to ALL their terms. That’s not negotiation, that’s capitulation by May. We should have simply refused and indicated that unless the EU JOINTLY agreed an agenda, the U.K. would not enter talks and would leave on the date specified. Had we done that, I have no doubt it would have forced the EU to compromise and they would have understood things wouldn’t be entirely on their terms. We are where we are because we didn’t stand up to them but the EU must now be made to understand that the U.K. will leave all of its institutions, that NI is a central part of the EU and that we would prefer to remain friends and allies rather than enemies.

Whitesince63 wrote:
Why is it fantasy to want to control the law in your own country? Would the USA, Canada, Australia or any other sovereign country accept it?

It's fantasy because after 5 years no solution has been offered by Brexiteers as to how to deal with the border. Comparing us to USA etc is nonsensical, they have no land border with the EU. And this is the central point, not wanting the ECJ involved is a fair demand given the terms of Brexit - but what's the solution?

T.R.O.Y. wrote:

Sluffy wrote:

I'm not wanting to get involved in this

Having tried to get involved 4 times now

???

Absolutely no idea what you are talking about?

I've said from when all this started that a vote was held and that the government had no choice but to honour it - that's how democracy works.

I didn't vote in the referendum and thus have no 'side' in the outcome.

I tried to reason with Wanderlust early on that despite his anger and bitterness the decision was made and he/we had to live with it and move on.

He didn't - so I never bother any more until...

...he posted on WW that he voted FOR Brexit because he was duped by what Boris et al had said at the time!!!

I couldn't stop laughing at the time and still giggle about it even now!

I pointed out his utter hypocrisy of what he'd said on here...

...even today he posted this!!!

wanderlust wrote:The majority of patriotic Brits voted to remain to protect our country from what is about to happen -  only to be undermined by sheep who swallowed the rhetoric of super rich people and politicians pursuing their own self-interest. 

And time will prove it was the remainders who are the real patriots.

Anyone who thinks that destroying our trade and services, Dividing our society, throwing people Into poverty and worsening our children’s future is a act of patriotism wants their head seeing to.

...and have from time to time reminded him of what he had posted (he himself being one of the swallowing sheep he posts about above!).

It's clear that he has personal issues about being seen to be wrong about anything - there are numerous occasions when it is blatantly obvious that he has been - Johnson controlling the press - being one of the funniest most recent ones!

It really doesn't bother me in the slightest what he voted for - it doesn't change the outcome - or whether he realises he now made a mistake - there must be countless thousands who admit theirs - it's the obsessive hatred and anger I've tried to moderate for the good of the site as at the time with Brexit and Anderson the place was turning extremely toxic indeed.

Clearly I failed in that and been seen by more than a few since to be the psycho nutcase on here.

Well maybe I am a psycho nutcase in real life but on here I was simply trying to tone down the anger of Brexit and the Tory hatred and at the same time trying to explain how company law is and that Anderson wasn't the crook / Devil incarnate that almost everyone else believed him to be.

I was on a hiding to nothing but if I didn't at least try to explain things then who else was going to stem the hatred and anger on here?

Anyway Wanderlust is in some sort of complete denial about ever being wrong so I've gone from trying to explain things to him with facts and references, to feeling sorry for him as he clearly has issues as to be seeing not to be ever wrong about anything, and now having exhausted all my compassion and sympathy for him to just laugh at him instead.

I have had no involvement on this thread other than to either point out the absurdness as to what he claims from time to time, such as - 'people' can't stop this - as he recently kept demanding or reminding him that despite all the daily bile he posts about Brexit (and the sheep that voted for it) - that he himself had said he'd voted FOR Brexit!!!

You've got to laugh really!!!

I am laughing
I didn't vote for Brexit and yet you keep quoting yourself as "evidence" I did - how f****d up is that?

wanderlust wrote:I am laughing
I didn't vote for Brexit and yet you keep quoting yourself as "evidence" I did - how f****d up is that?

You posted on WW as Hoppy510

You took your user name from here when I disagreed with you and made the comment that Eddie Hopkinson could not be our greatest ever goalkeeper because in modern times a keeper who is only 5' 10" tall simply isn't viable.

Whilst you were on WW (you were there because you had been banned from Nuts for abuse) you posted that you voted FOR Brexit because you were duped by what Boris had said and that you have felt angry and bitter since because of it.

When you were on WW you contacted Norpig a number of times on there.

Norpig KNOWS you posted as Hoppy510 on WW and that you posted that you voted for Brexit.

I've no doubt that others know too.

Here's one of your posts to Norpig about me rescinding the ban you were serving at the time.

(You were the only person to have their ban rescinded - we ban so few people for more than a day or so that we knew it was you - there was no one else it could possibly be!).

Posted September 25, 2019
Kinell Pig - I've just had my "permanent" ban rescinded and now you come on here? Do I need to change my deodorant?

Need your support over there in my efforts to see if two permanent bans are possible. Ross McWhirter's pen is twitching.

https://www.wanderersways.com/forum/topic/90198-hello/?tab=comments#comment-1936138

Also shows that you were already looking to get future bans too!

Need I go on...?

Whilst several newspapers are focusing on "Bungling Boris's latest U-turn" on his Brexit promise to cut tax on fuel bills, the more interesting story is a Telegraph - yes, The Telegraph's - leader entitled "Time is running out to prove Brexit is not a historic failure".

I am left wondering if the malaise felt by the tax-dodging Tory donors the Barclay Brothers has spread further into the infamous "Leaders Group" of British and foreign billionaire Tory bankrollers? The Leaders Group dining club alone raised 80% of the total funds used for Boris's general election campaign.

Interesting reality check by the BBC on some of the government's claims re Brexit:- well worth a read!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/59868823

It's interesting that Boris has "ruled out" - at least publicly - any relaxation of the immigration rules for Indian citizens in the upcoming trade talks with India.

Meanwhile Narendra Modi has said that such relaxation of rules was a "red line" if the UK wants a closer relationship with India.

Something has to give and the problem is that we need the deal much more than the Indians whose economy has overtaken ours and is expected to become the third largest in the world.

With no trade deal with any of the larger economies looking likely, two of the key pillars of Brexit - immigration control and trade deals - are going to be in direct conflict with each other.

My view is that there's no way the government dare come back without a deal with India - they are up against it from all sides including their own and they desperately need something that can be dressed up as a "win" - so I reckon they'll try to fudge it by offering a raft of concessions that have the same or similar effect as relaxing the immigration rules but can be disguised as something else e.g. lengthy work permits, reduced student fees with an option to stay on when their studies are complete and cut price tourism visas.

Whether India will accept that and whether Brexiteers will be happy with such arrangements if agreed remains to be seen.
 
But whatever is agreed, Boris will yet again claim a compromise as victory. In this situation there has to be a compromise - and he'll try to bury it.

No deal is not an option.

wanderlust wrote:It's interesting that Boris has "ruled out" - at least publicly - any relaxation of the immigration rules for Indian citizens in the upcoming trade talks with India.

Meanwhile Narendra Modi has said that such relaxation of rules was a "red line" if the UK wants a closer relationship with India.

Something has to give and the problem is that we need the deal much more than the Indians whose economy has overtaken ours and is expected to become the third largest in the world.

With no trade deal with any of the larger economies looking likely, two of the key pillars of Brexit - immigration control and trade deals - are going to be in direct conflict with each other.

My view is that there's no way the government dare come back without a deal with India - they are up against it from all sides including their own and they desperately need something that can be dressed up as a "win" - so I reckon they'll try to fudge it by offering a raft of concessions that have the same or similar effect as relaxing the immigration rules but can be disguised as something else e.g. lengthy work permits, reduced student fees with an option to stay on when their studies are complete and cut price tourism visas.

Whether India will accept that and whether Brexiteers will be happy with such arrangements if agreed remains to be seen.
 
But whatever is agreed, Boris will yet again claim a compromise as victory. In this situation there has to be a compromise - and he'll try to bury it.

No deal is not an option.

Lusty, I don’t claim to speak for all Brexiteers but most of those I do know were never against immigration, just unlimited immigration and freedom of movement mainly from the Eastern European states responsible for cheap Labour which has both increased the strain on housing, education, health and better pay levels. 

As far as India is concerned, if the UK is such a basket case as you maintain, why would Indians want to come here anyway? Personally I have great respect for Indians who are generally law abiding and hard working and just the kind of immigrants we do want. They are well educated and already have a sizeable community here and mix well with UK society. 

Once again you see only negatives from the discussions Boris is having yet it’s entirely probable that there are ways both India and UK can achieve an amicable solution for both sides. Free Trade with India would open up huge opportunities for UK companies and with their enviable skills in technological areas could contribute greatly to our new industries. As a Brexiteer I’m all for a deal.

Whitesince63 wrote:

Lusty, I don’t claim to speak for all Brexiteers but most of those I do know were never against immigration, just unlimited immigration and freedom of movement mainly from the Eastern European states responsible for cheap Labour which has both increased the strain on housing, education, health and better pay levels. 

As far as India is concerned, if the UK is such a basket case as you maintain, why would Indians want to come here anyway? Personally I have great respect for Indians who are generally law abiding and hard working and just the kind of immigrants we do want. They are well educated and already have a sizeable community here and mix well with UK society. 

Once again you see only negatives from the discussions Boris is having yet it’s entirely probable that there are ways both India and UK can achieve an amicable solution for both sides. Free Trade with India would open up huge opportunities for UK companies and with their enviable skills in technological areas could contribute greatly to our new industries. As a Brexiteer I’m all for a deal.

Para 1: It's impossible to evaluate what percentage of Leave voters primarily did so on the immigration issue but in my town most of the ones I know did and about half of them are out and out racists by modern standards and voted leave purely on the basis of keeping out "foreigners". Some of them actually thought that voting leave would lead to repatriations of families that have been here for a hundred years! However, there appears to be a perception in government that it is an important chunk of their support that needs to be kept sweet. There was quite a lot of room to introduce controlled immigration whilst we were members of the EU - we didn't need to leave to do it despite the myth perpetuated by the Leave campaign.

Currently the immigration criteria for moving to Germany are you have to be either a bona fide refugee OR meet ALL of the following:
* Have medical insurance so that you are not a burden on their health system
* Have proven financial stability so that you are not a burden on their welfare system
* Have a basic proficiency in the German language
* Have a visa unless you come from a state which has an agreement with them e.g. EU members.

There is no reason whatsoever that such measures could not have been introduced whilst we were in the EU - it is simply that Cameron's government did not have the will to do it.

Para 2: Why do Indians want to come here? Many reasons including the large existing diaspora, family, work opportunities in traditional sectors such as medicine and the cultural belief in India that doctors and engineers who get degrees at UK universities are better qualified than those who get degrees in India which will improve their career prospects.

Para 3: Here we go again I raised the issue of two conflicting interests (fact) and speculated how I think it might pan out (opinion) Isn't that what we do on a discussion forum?


White re yr point in the PM - Surely ECJ has to be included in discussions affecting their own border?

The government has now introduced a raft of new documentation to be completed by importers of goods and parts to the UK effective from the 1st of January. This is the next phase of the Brexit hard border that will be phased in over the coming months.

Despite this being the "post-Xmas quiet period" already lorries are being turned back at Calais but to avoid images of queues appearing on the news, freight forwarders are being told to do the documentation in depots before setting off for the border where rigorous checks will be made.

Meanwhile...
The new Regional Comprehensive Economic Partnership (RCEP) trade agreement came into force on January 1st covering fifteen member countries – Australia, Brunei, Cambodia, China, Indonesia, Japan, South Korea, Laos, Malaysia, Myanmar, New Zealand, Philippines, Singapore, Thailand and Vietnam.
The world’s largest free trading bloc is now open for business.
The countries that make up the trade deal account for around 30% of the world’s population (2.2 billion people) and 30% of global GDP ($26.2 trillion), making it the largest trading bloc in history.

I'm not a betting man, but I wouldn't be surprised if the RCEP, the USA and the EU prioritise setting up trade deals with each other.

wanderlust wrote:
Para 1: It's impossible to evaluate what percentage of Leave voters primarily did so on the immigration issue but in my town most of the ones I know did and about half of them are out and out racists by modern standards and voted leave purely on the basis of keeping out "foreigners". Some of them actually thought that voting leave would lead to repatriations of families that have been here for a hundred years! However, there appears to be a perception in government that it is an important chunk of their support that needs to be kept sweet. There was quite a lot of room to introduce controlled immigration whilst we were members of the EU - we didn't need to leave to do it despite the myth perpetuated by the Leave campaign.

Currently the immigration criteria for moving to Germany are you have to be either a bona fide refugee OR meet ALL of the following:
* Have medical insurance so that you are not a burden on their health system
* Have proven financial stability so that you are not a burden on their welfare system
* Have a basic proficiency in the German language
* Have a visa unless you come from a state which has an agreement with them e.g. EU members.

There is no reason whatsoever that such measures could not have been introduced whilst we were in the EU - it is simply that Cameron's government did not have the will to do it.

Para 2: Why do Indians want to come here? Many reasons including the large existing diaspora, family, work opportunities in traditional sectors such as medicine and the cultural belief in India that doctors and engineers who get degrees at UK universities are better qualified than those who get degrees in India which will improve their career prospects.

Para 3: Here we go again I raised the issue of two conflicting interests (fact) and speculated how I think it might pan out (opinion) Isn't that what we do on a discussion forum?


White re yr point in the PM - Surely ECJ has to be included in discussions affecting their own border?

Last bit first Lusty. I didn’t say the ECJ shouldn’t have a voice in discussions, just that they shouldn’t be the single body deciding.

As far as immigration is concerned, whilst we were members of the EU we had no choice regarding immigration from the EU due to free movement. On Germany, they are currently suffering massive problems due to Merkels rather over generous invitation to migrants which are now causing huge social and crime problems. Quel surprise!