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Coronavirus - the political argument

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observer
Sluffy
gloswhite
Ten Bobsworth
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okocha
wessy
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xmiles
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Norpig
Natasha Whittam
boltonbonce
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201Coronavirus - the political argument - Page 11 Empty Re: Coronavirus - the political argument Fri Apr 17 2020, 17:36

xmiles

xmiles
Jay Jay Okocha
Jay Jay Okocha

Cajunboy wrote:
xmiles wrote:
Norpig wrote:If the PM being at deaths door and being rescued by the NHS doesn't make them start to properly fund it then nothing will.
I'm hoping that and the current situation are a wake up call to the Government and they start to realise what an essential service it provides and stop the sneaking privitisation that is still going on.

Sadly that is not going to happen Norpig. The Tory party exists only to look after the rich and big business. Nothing will change that.
I guess that's why they won the election with an 80 seat majority.

That doesn't actually disprove my point. Our electoral first past the post system distorts the result. The Tories took 43.6% of the votes cast, which even ignoring the third of the electorate that didn't vote, means 56.4% of votes were for other parties.

People are all too easy to fool. After all plenty of people voted for Trump and Hitler to give just two obvious examples.

202Coronavirus - the political argument - Page 11 Empty Re: Coronavirus - the political argument Fri Apr 17 2020, 18:47

xmiles

xmiles
Jay Jay Okocha
Jay Jay Okocha

203Coronavirus - the political argument - Page 11 Empty Re: Coronavirus - the political argument Fri Apr 17 2020, 18:53

Cajunboy

Cajunboy
Frank Worthington
Frank Worthington

xmiles wrote:
Cajunboy wrote:
xmiles wrote:
Norpig wrote:If the PM being at deaths door and being rescued by the NHS doesn't make them start to properly fund it then nothing will.
I'm hoping that and the current situation are a wake up call to the Government and they start to realise what an essential service it provides and stop the sneaking privitisation that is still going on.

Sadly that is not going to happen Norpig. The Tory party exists only to look after the rich and big business. Nothing will change that.
I guess that's why they won the election with an 80 seat majority.

That doesn't actually disprove my point. Our electoral first past the post system distorts the result. The Tories took 43.6% of the votes cast, which even ignoring the third of the electorate that didn't vote, means 56.4% of votes were for other parties.

People are all too easy to fool. After all plenty of people voted for Trump and Hitler to give just two obvious examples. 
I think when you start to compare Boris with Hitler you have lost the debate.

204Coronavirus - the political argument - Page 11 Empty Re: Coronavirus - the political argument Fri Apr 17 2020, 18:56

boltonbonce

boltonbonce
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse

xmiles wrote:And talking of American idiots:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-52330531
Indeed.

205Coronavirus - the political argument - Page 11 Empty Re: Coronavirus - the political argument Fri Apr 17 2020, 19:05

okocha

okocha
El Hadji Diouf
El Hadji Diouf

And this is why it's important to point out failings right now so that efforts can be made to change tack:

"Hospitals set to ‘run out’ of gowns by Monday. Week after week we hear of problems in PPE getting to the frontline despite what ministers tell us at Downing Street press conferences. This ongoing failure needs fixing and ministers must explain how they will fix it urgently."


The same applies to care homes, largely forgotten by the government until the oversight was forcibly pointed out this week by the carers themselves, by Labour, and by the media with evidence to back it up. Otherwise Hancock and co. may well have continued down their blinkered path,

206Coronavirus - the political argument - Page 11 Empty Re: Coronavirus - the political argument Fri Apr 17 2020, 19:20

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin

T.R.O.Y. wrote:It’s not, it’s good to expose where there are shortcomings though so government policy is directed correctly - we’ve seen it in the last week with care homes.

It really doesn't work like that though in my experience of working in the public sector.

If we had sufficient PPE's for everyone who needed and sufficient tests/analysis to see if anyone had the virus then does anyone really and truly think care homes wouldn't have been issued them much sooner than now?

The reality of the situation is more likely to be there simply wasn't enough to start with and the inability to acquire all of what we need since.

What we did have obviously had to go to those who needed them the most which are the hospitals.

Put bluntly if you haven't the tools to save everyone's life then do you try to save folk in their forties/fifties/sixties who are able to function in society or those in their eighties/nineties/hundreds in the care homes, a great many of whom have underlying health issues and/or dementia.

I'm not being callous or heartless, just giving the stark choice faced.

The government hasn't suddenly bowed to 'scrutiny' to now suddenly start supplying the care homes because it is the right thing to do but because they must have acquired the means to do so recently and haven't been able to prior than now.

I 'get' people highlighting/condemning the government not having PPE's, testing, and even dying because of the lack of being prepared for the tsunami of demand for these things but all the scrutiny in the world can change a thing if the country simply doesn't have enough of the PPE's and ability to test/process for the virus - they can't somehow be magicked up out of thin air somehow.

Every needless death is a tragedy but if you can't save everybody then I guess you try to save the ones with most to live for now, where you can.

Scrutiny doesn't change anything other than to highlight one of the sad consequences of this saga - and one that has been played out in most if not all of the country's that have faced this - it's certainly not a unique criticism of just this country alone.

Banging on about things changes nothing if there's nothing left in the pot to give.

No doubt facemasks will be one of the next big 'scrutinised' areas put under the microscope but if there is less than a perfect supply now for just the front line staff presently then where can the literal mountains of masks required for everyone else suddenly appear from, when all the rest of the world are scrambling for them too?

Even if we had of been on the EU procurement order the stocks we would have got would have amounted to a piss in the ocean for the numbers we would need to keep everybody in the UK adequately supplied with them for the many months/years we are going to have to deal with this until we beat it.

Scrutiny is all well and good in normal times - these aren't normal times though and decisions are/have been made on which lives to save at the cost of which lives to sacrifice for them.

Brutal I know and apologise for but what else can you do if you simply don't have enough of the stuff needed to save everyone's life?

Scrutiny doesn't achieve much right now I'm afraid, time for recrimination is after the fire is put out and not whilst the house is ablaze.

207Coronavirus - the political argument - Page 11 Empty Re: Coronavirus - the political argument Fri Apr 17 2020, 19:33

Guest


Guest

It’s not about recriminations. It’s about exposing gaps and flaws in policy so policy is correctly focussed. That’s what good quality journalism is about.

208Coronavirus - the political argument - Page 11 Empty Re: Coronavirus - the political argument Fri Apr 17 2020, 19:45

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin

okocha wrote:And this is why it's important to point out failings right now so that efforts can be made to change tack:

"Hospitals set to ‘run out’ of gowns by Monday. Week after week we hear of problems in PPE getting to the frontline despite what ministers tell us at Downing Street press conferences. This ongoing failure needs fixing and ministers must explain how they will fix it urgently."


The same applies to care homes, largely forgotten by the government until the oversight was forcibly pointed out this week by the carers themselves, by Labour, and by the media with evidence to back it up. Otherwise Hancock and co. may well have continued down their blinkered path,

Question - if the article you quote says there are insufficient PPE's/problems with supply, then where was the presumably massive stock of equipment the government had that they 'forgot/ignored' to supply the care homes with?

You can't have a shortage to the NHS on one hand and 'forgotten' stock in warehouses somewhere, earmarked for the care homes that have simply not been given out.

What's probably more likely to have happened in my mind is that what stock we had planned for and held was deemed sufficient for the NHS AND care homes but the reality when the virus suddenly hit was that the NHS needed more or less all of it due to the overwhelming demand as the priority service and care homes sacrificed until sufficient deliveries of PPE's for all could be sourced and delivered.

What else could be done?

Scrutiny has achieved nothing in making the government act, I'm sure they knew the score from the very early days and had no other choice but to commit what they had to the hospitals and crossed their fingers that extra supplies for the care homes could be sourced pretty damn quick thereafter, which clearly proved impossible with all the rest of the world seeking to buy PPE's as well.

Time for recriminations after the virus is beaten, not now.

209Coronavirus - the political argument - Page 11 Empty Re: Coronavirus - the political argument Fri Apr 17 2020, 20:00

xmiles

xmiles
Jay Jay Okocha
Jay Jay Okocha

Cajunboy wrote:
xmiles wrote:
Cajunboy wrote:
xmiles wrote:
Norpig wrote:If the PM being at deaths door and being rescued by the NHS doesn't make them start to properly fund it then nothing will.
I'm hoping that and the current situation are a wake up call to the Government and they start to realise what an essential service it provides and stop the sneaking privitisation that is still going on.

Sadly that is not going to happen Norpig. The Tory party exists only to look after the rich and big business. Nothing will change that.
I guess that's why they won the election with an 80 seat majority.

That doesn't actually disprove my point. Our electoral first past the post system distorts the result. The Tories took 43.6% of the votes cast, which even ignoring the third of the electorate that didn't vote, means 56.4% of votes were for other parties.

People are all too easy to fool. After all plenty of people voted for Trump and Hitler to give just two obvious examples. 
I think when you start to compare Boris with Hitler you have lost the debate.

I am not comparing Boris with Hitler and I know that introducing Hitler as an example of what can go wrong with democracy is always contentious.

If you want to refute my point please give some examples of where the Tories have done anything for ordinary people rather than the rich or big corporations. You might also consider where the Tories get their funds from. It is exclusively from the rich, many of whom are not even British.

210Coronavirus - the political argument - Page 11 Empty Re: Coronavirus - the political argument Fri Apr 17 2020, 20:09

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin

T.R.O.Y. wrote:It’s not about recriminations. It’s about exposing gaps and flaws in policy so policy is correctly focussed. That’s what good quality journalism is about.

Think you are getting confused between policy and delivery of policy.

I've no doubt in the governments 'master plan' for pandemics that provision to care homes was accounted for - that being the policy.

When the event finally happened though it overwhelmed the ability to deliver on the policy and the care homes were sacrificed for the common good in favour of the hospitals in order to do the best we could with the resources available to us at the time.

Journalism/scrutiny simply can't have any influence on the policy or the delivery of it if there were insufficient resources in the first place.  I doubt the focus of the policy was ever wrong it just got overwhelmed with the demands when the virus hit and the hospitals were quite rightly prioritised over care homes.

All the reporters can do is report on the deficiency, the Labour Party can make political points but neither can magic up the PPE's required now.

I'm sure the government is well aware of the deficiency but short of diverting PPE's from the hospitals to the care homes what can they, or anyone, do until they source sufficient stocks need to plug the shortfall?

Hopefully that is now well in hand.

211Coronavirus - the political argument - Page 11 Empty Re: Coronavirus - the political argument Fri Apr 17 2020, 20:19

okocha

okocha
El Hadji Diouf
El Hadji Diouf

Sluffy, I'm not going to get into a full-on argument with you about your views., which I can see won't change.

 I agree with you about just one thing, namely that your views are, as you say, brutal, and I hope you or your loved ones never have to go into a Care Home. Perhaps that would be the only thing that would alter your stance. All life is precious.

Suffice to say, I agree with TROY about intervening before more avoidable deaths occur, and with most of the media who fairly criticise the failure to get PPE delivered to those in the firing line.

212Coronavirus - the political argument - Page 11 Empty Re: Coronavirus - the political argument Fri Apr 17 2020, 20:43

okocha

okocha
El Hadji Diouf
El Hadji Diouf

Sluffy wrote:
T.R.O.Y. wrote:It’s not about recriminations. It’s about exposing gaps and flaws in policy so policy is correctly focussed. That’s what good quality journalism is about.

I've no doubt in the governments 'master plan' for pandemics that provision to care homes was accounted for (How can you be sure? I don't even think they had a master plan!)

When the event finally happened though it overwhelmed the ability to deliver on the policy and the care homes were sacrificed for the common good in favour of the hospitals (Again, how do you know?....pure supposition)

 if (doubting yourself?)there were insufficient resources in the first place.

 I doubt the focus of the policy was ever wrong  (As you say: "if"....and mere conjecture and "doubt" about the focus being right.

I'm sure the government is well aware of the deficiency (How do you know?)

Hopefully that is now well in hand. ( And there we have it in a nutshell....you just "hope" that the government line is accurate and that they have honestly always done all they could to a masterplan.

Well, with the Tories' record on truth, competence  and honesty, I dispute that!
Everything you write is just your opinion; and this is mine.....

213Coronavirus - the political argument - Page 11 Empty Re: Coronavirus - the political argument Fri Apr 17 2020, 21:11

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin

okocha wrote:I've no doubt in the governments 'master plan' for pandemics that provision to care homes was accounted for (How can you be sure? I don't even think they had a master plan!)

When the event finally happened though it overwhelmed the ability to deliver on the policy and the care homes were sacrificed for the common good in favour of the hospitals (Again, how do you know?....pure supposition)

 if (doubting yourself?)there were insufficient resources in the first place.

 I doubt the focus of the policy was ever wrong  (As you say: "if"....and mere conjecture and "doubt" about the focus being right.

I'm sure the government is well aware of the deficiency (How do you know?)

Hopefully that is now well in hand. ( And there we have it in a nutshell....you just "hope" that the government line is accurate and that they have honestly always done all they could to a masterplan.

Well, with the Tories' record on truth, competence  and honesty, I dispute that!
Everything you write is just your opinion; and this is mine.....


I'm not playing games especially with a fake account.

Fwiw the government DOES have pandemic plans -

The government’s roadmap for how to respond to a coronavirus-like pandemic has long been available online, and the three key documents – the 70-page “Influenza Pandemic Preparedness Strategy”, 78-page “Health and Social Care Influenza Pandemic Preparedness and Response” and 88-page “Pandemic Influenza Response Plan” – were published in 2011, 2012 and 2014 respectively.

Whether they were up to the task is another thing though and they did fail a test made on them in 2016.

The bottom line to all this is simply the fact that there wasn't enough PPE's or test when needed and somebody somewhere had to lose out and given the only option was between hospitals and care homes which decision would you or anyone else make?

I know which the right one was and somebody had to make it.


That's not uncaring, that unfortunately is the reality of the position we were/are in.



Last edited by Sluffy on Fri Apr 17 2020, 21:13; edited 1 time in total

214Coronavirus - the political argument - Page 11 Empty Re: Coronavirus - the political argument Fri Apr 17 2020, 21:12

Guest


Guest

“Fake account”

scratch 

Getting silly now.

215Coronavirus - the political argument - Page 11 Empty Re: Coronavirus - the political argument Fri Apr 17 2020, 21:14

Guest


Guest

Sluffy wrote:
T.R.O.Y. wrote:It’s not about recriminations. It’s about exposing gaps and flaws in policy so policy is correctly focussed. That’s what good quality journalism is about.

Think you are getting confused between policy and delivery of policy.

I've no doubt in the governments 'master plan' for pandemics that provision to care homes was accounted for - that being the policy.

When the event finally happened though it overwhelmed the ability to deliver on the policy and the care homes were sacrificed for the common good in favour of the hospitals in order to do the best we could with the resources available to us at the time.

Journalism/scrutiny simply can't have any influence on the policy or the delivery of it if there were insufficient resources in the first place.  I doubt the focus of the policy was ever wrong it just got overwhelmed with the demands when the virus hit and the hospitals were quite rightly prioritised over care homes.

All the reporters can do is report on the deficiency, the Labour Party can make political points but neither can magic up the PPE's required now.

I'm sure the government is well aware of the deficiency but short of diverting PPE's from the hospitals to the care homes what can they, or anyone, do until they source sufficient stocks need to plug the shortfall?

Hopefully that is now well in hand.

What point are you trying to make on policy vs delivery of policy? This needs explaining properly.

If you don’t think the media has any influence over the government that’s fine, I completely disagree and let’s leave it at that. I can’t be bothered getting into a never ending row with you over it.

216Coronavirus - the political argument - Page 11 Empty Re: Coronavirus - the political argument Fri Apr 17 2020, 23:32

okocha

okocha
El Hadji Diouf
El Hadji Diouf

More salient points: 

1. Are we going to continue to ignore everything that all the healthcare charities are saying about testing and supply of PPE? We should be supporting them, rather than trying to defend a government that's failing them. Lack of foresight and preparedness is shocking. Are they setting a good example to the nation with their flouting of their own rules?

2. Are you, Sluffy, saying that Captain Tom Moore and all others of that ilk, including the old lady who is embarking on climbing the equivalent of a mountain to raise money for the NHS, are of less value than younger people, especially those who fail to observe the guidelines and spread the virus?

3, Why have we let flights come and go with feeble, if any, checks?

4. Why allow the Cheltenham Festival?

5. Why the little green badges and hypocritical, empty plaudits in lieu of concrete promises of a pay rise for nurses, denied for a decade....which equates to a pay cut in real terms? Action not words or empty gestures!

6. Are you, or a loved one, happy at the possibility of needing to go into a care home?
 No offence, Sluffy, but how does your daughter feel about your views? 
 
(Please note: I am also not playing games, Sluffy.  I will always be polite to you and treat your views with respect, but they are so out of sync with mine that they make me feel I need to try to understand you better)

217Coronavirus - the political argument - Page 11 Empty Re: Coronavirus - the political argument Sat Apr 18 2020, 01:15

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin

Three day straight ban.

You keep unwelcome references to my family off here.

I said from the very beginning of Nuts that people can have a pop at me all they want but never to bring my family into it.

Non of your business what my daughter thinks.

You won't get another warning if you ever do that again.

As for your other bollocks above I would wish everybody gets the help and equipment they need but if you simply don't have the means to do that you have no choice but to prioritise who gets what from what resources you do have.

It's as simple as that.

And you know it...

218Coronavirus - the political argument - Page 11 Empty Re: Coronavirus - the political argument Sat Apr 18 2020, 10:00

Norpig

Norpig
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse

Okocha banned?  Shocked

219Coronavirus - the political argument - Page 11 Empty Re: Coronavirus - the political argument Sat Apr 18 2020, 11:16

Guest


Guest

Way too much Sluffy. I assume there’s something else outside of the forum which has stressed you out and triggered this reaction (I’m sure a lot of us have been in similar frames of mind). 

Think when you look back at this today removal of the ban and an apology to okocha would be fair.

220Coronavirus - the political argument - Page 11 Empty Re: Coronavirus - the political argument Sat Apr 18 2020, 11:30

boltonbonce

boltonbonce
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse

Norpig wrote:Okocha banned?  Shocked
I've read his post a couple of times, but I can't really see anything worthy of even a one day ban, let alone three.
I hope Sluffy will reconsider, because, on past form Okocha is one of our fairest and even handed posters.
Perhaps we're going stir crazy. I know I am.

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