Coronavirus - will we survive?

T.R.O.Y. wrote:Saying it’s all society is a far too simplistic view of it.

It’s not either or, it’s both society and government that need to be working effectively to minimise the affects.

Without structures and leadership in place it’s too easy for rules not to be followed or understood.

When the head of test and trace is saying nobody could have predicted something that seems painfully obvious to most, and Boris coming out yesterday with vague speculation like ‘you’ve got to wonder if we need to go further than the rule of six’ - then we clearly have an absence of leadership in two key roles in this battle.

Mate, it isn't hard to understand to keep a social distance, wash your hands and keep within your own bubble.

Nor is it to wear a facemask inside public places such as shops.

If people could simply manage to do that there wouldn't even be a need for increased testing capacity and rules of six.

It's simply cause and effect.

If people followed these very, very simple and basic rules in the first place there would even be a second wave!

I guess if you want to /feel the need to politicalise everything then maybe the question you might be better addressing is would we be better off under a government such as China where people do as they are told and the virus isn't an issue or a free democracy government (whether it be Labour or Conservative for us) where people aren't 'controlled' and the virus is constantly 'let out of the bag'?

I know which one I prefer even if it might well end up killing me - can you even comprehend a fear of ones own death?  I hadn't until this thing came into my personal world.  So this topic is not a 'play' thing to me (and others).

It is a society/behaviour issue - the rules are clear, easy to follow and to comply with and everybody understands them perfectly - even little children, it's just that a vast amount of people simply don't/won't follow them.

It is as simple as that.

I can't lay the blame at Dido, Johnson or Cummings feet for that.

Even if you do.

Again, I think it comes down to very different standards as to what we call good leadership then. I’d call this government a car crash, but you’re happy with their performance - it’s a matter of opinion I suppose.

Personally, I judge based on the evidence I see. I’ve given plenty of examples to show why I think the leadership has been poor and haven’t seen much that shows the opposite. Until I do that opinion won’t change.

Natasha Whittam wrote:There is definitely a lack of leadership. Sadly Boris seems to want to please everyone, but by sitting on the fence he's making things worse.

I want my leader to lead, not be popular. If he'd made mask wearing mandatory everywhere inside and out, kept pubs shut, and made an example of people who broke the rules things would look much better in my opinion.

However, there is no doubt a growing number of folk are absolute twats, who seem to think it is their right to do as they please and fuck everyone else. Would they do this in China? Would they fuck.

Agreed, vague messaging won’t get us anywhere. The rule of six at least tries to simplify it so I’m glad they’ve gone in that direction at least, but it’s been very poor overall.

Sluffy wrote:

Mate, it isn't hard to understand to keep a social distance, wash your hands and keep within your own bubble.

Nor is it to wear a facemask inside public places such as shops.

If people could simply manage to do that there wouldn't even be a need for increased testing capacity and rules of six.

It's simply cause and effect.

It may be simple to understand but in practice there will always be some people who don't comply. We don't live in China thankfully so policing of this is going to be limited. In addition as children have gone back to school it is a known fact that incidences of colds, coughs and flu will increase. Inevitably some of these children and their parents/associates will have symptoms that could be covid and will want to test.

This is why Dido and Boris are culpable. The increase in demand was entirely predictable and they didn't prepare for it. Instead they prefer to waste money on farcical distractions like Boris' impossible "moonshot".

It’s also not always possible to social distance in schools, but it’s a calculated risk the government have taken (and the right one) to get children back to school.

Therefore the testing infrastructure has to be robust to support this increased exposure. They had time to prepare and capacity has grown massively but it’s management and how it is being accessed/distributed is clearly an issue. And that’s not society’s fault Sluffy.

T.R.O.Y. wrote:Again, I think it comes down to very different standards as to what we call good leadership then. I’d call this government a car crash, but you’re happy with their performance - it’s a matter of opinion I suppose.

Personally, I judge based on the evidence I see. I’ve given plenty of examples to show why I think the leadership has been poor and haven’t seen much that shows the opposite. Until I do that opinion won’t change.

Nah, your missing my point entirely.

I'm not saying anywhere that I'm happy with the governments performance - quite clearly it is poor and I don't think many could argue otherwise.

My point is simply that the governments - virtually all across the world I guess - have told people the clear and unambiguous steps to take to stop the virus in its tracks.

Maybe some country's are too poor for all to comply with the rules but frankly there is no excuse in ours not to do so - yet masses of people simply ignore them every day.

Unless you want a government like China who 're-educates' everyone not toeing the line then you can hardly blame Boris et al for people not giving two fucks for anyone other than themselves. Even good polices and strong governance don't stop people breaking the rules simply because they can't be arsed to follow them.

The problem is a social one - we KNOW how to stop the spread by simply following the rules - the problem is that too many people just don't follow them.

T.R.O.Y. wrote:It’s also not always possible to social distance in schools, but it’s a calculated risk the government have taken (and the right one) to get children back to school.

Therefore the testing infrastructure has to be robust to support this increased exposure. They had time to prepare and capacity has grown massively but it’s management and how it is being accessed/distributed is clearly an issue. And that’s not society’s fault Sluffy.

We are starting to go around in circles now.

Where have the children who took the virus to school in the first place caught the virus from?

If that child and their parents had been following the simple basic rules we've had from the outset they wouldn't have caught it in the first place and wouldn't be spreading it to others.

That's why we had the lockdown in the first place to bring down the infections that had found its way to this country and spread out of control and if when lockdown was lifted and we as a society had continued to social distance, stay within our bubbles, then it wouldn't have kicked off again - but we didn't, and it has.

That's not politics - that's people behaving how they want even after being asked/told/instructed/begged not to.

Do you think people would be social distancing and keeping in bubbles if Corbyn/Starmer/Gary Lineker was in charge of the government - of course they wouldn't they would still be doing the same things and we would still be having the same outcome.

People are the ones spreading this and they know full well they aren't social distancing and meeting up with those outside their bubbles - you can't hold Boris accountable for that unless you want him to run the country like they do in China.

And we all know that isn't an acceptable way to go.

People will do as instructed as long as they can see that ministers and their unelected advisers follow the rules too. Good leaders lead by example, with a clear set of principles and a moral code.
 
But there is presently no respect for a government which is happy to break the law. Tory rule-breaking is currently supported by a majority of Tories in parliament to general disgust here and across the world, so not sure it will be possible to clinch trade deals with countries looking on in amazement at us.

Is there any Tory minister whose word can be trusted?  

I see that the latest opinion poll has Lab and Cons exactly level on 40% and that Starmer is favoured as a prime minister over Johnson.

okocha wrote:People will do as instructed as long as they can see that ministers and their unelected advisers follow the rules too. Good leaders lead by example, with a clear set of principles and a moral code.
 
But there is presently no respect for a government which is happy to break the law. Tory rule-breaking is currently supported by a majority of Tories in parliament to general disgust here and across the world, so not sure it will be possible to clinch trade deals with countries looking on in amazement at us.

Is there any Tory minister whose word can be trusted?  

I see that the latest opinion poll has Lab and Cons exactly level on 40% and that Starmer is favoured as a prime minister over Johnson.

I stopped reading at that statement of complete bollocks.

Utter fantasy stuff.

Thatcher was a good leader - she must have been as she was elected three times by the country and certainly had her principles and a moral code.

Didn't stop her being hated and despised my many though and actively acted against by many of them.

Short of shutting down the economy entirely and a very strict lockdown being in place you won’t stop the spread of the virus just by following the rules Sluffy - and you’d also do massive damage to the economy.

I think you probably do know that to be fair, and you agree that the governments performance has been poor so I’m not really sure what your point is anymore.

Article to underline what I've been saying as to why the problem is a societal one and not a purely political one.

Coronavirus: 'Rule-breaking Bolton pub crawl' saw cases rise

A returning holidaymaker who went on a pub crawl instead of self-isolating was partly responsible for Bolton's "extreme spike" in coronavirus cases, the town's council leader said.
David Greenhalgh said the man tested positive for Covid-19 two days after the night out with friends in the town.
He said Bolton's high rate had been linked back to pubs and a "cohort of people" who refused to follow guidance.
It is currently subject to tighter restrictions to halt the rise.
Mr Greenhalgh told BBC Radio 4's Today programme the spike "took us by surprise as we were arguing to have a further easing of restrictions at the time".
He said: "We had an extreme spike where we went from 12 cases per 100,000 and in less than three weeks we were up at 212 cases."

'Number of mates'

The rise led Bolton to have the highest rates of Covid-19 in the country.
"We had somebody who did not adhere to quarantine, did not stay the 14 days, literally went on a pub crawl with a number of mates," Mr Greenhalgh said.
"From that incident which took place over a weekend - (they) visited a number of premises - led to a large number of individual transmissions from that one person which you can imagine then is like holding back the tide because he then became symptomatic two days after they had all gone on this pub crawl.
"That is four or five days where all the people he was in contact with have been going about their normal day-to-day business."
Bolton is now subject to tougher measures than most of England, with hospitality venues only allowed to operate as takeaways and ordered to shut by 22:00.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-54205353

You can't absolve this government of any responsibility for the mess we are in. They appointed Dido Harding as head of the test and trace programme. On Thursday she told MPs " I don't think anybody was expecting to see the really sizeable increase" in the demand for testing.

This is simply not true. Many experts knew there would be a significant increase following the return of children to school. Either she is stupidly incompetent or lying. Your choice.

Don’t even need to be an expert to know if you increase the amount of people mixing, the need for testing is bound to go up. Common sense surely.

Im surprised at this full lockdown they might bring in. The Tories clearly arent listening to Jacob Rees-Mogg anymore. Rees-Mogg would recommend everyone take seven to fifteen tinctures of Laudanum per day, which will remove any worries about your symptoms. The good old Victorian way.
Rees-Moog was best friends with Thomas de Quincey and  he gets his supply from a Chinese man, near the river Thames.

Sluffy wrote:

But you told us it was the safest place in the world and fuck all Covid, just over a week ago, didn't you?



Seems you were just talking utter bollocks yet again and thought you knew better than everyone else.

A constant theme with you.

What an absolute load of tripe.

There were zero reported cases where I was in Portugal and the general respect shown to others and their safety was phenomenal in comparison to the UK. 

As it happens nearly all the new cases are in a slum area of Lisbon which surprisingly enough I had no interest in visiting.

And please cut out the petty jibes and attempted imaginary character assassinations all the time. I'm better at it than you but if I cut you down to size on here you'd only ban me again in a fit of pique so shut it.

T.R.O.Y. wrote:Short of shutting down the economy entirely and a very strict lockdown being in place you won’t stop the spread of the virus just by following the rules Sluffy - and you’d also do massive damage to the economy.

I think you probably do know that to be fair, and you agree that the governments performance has been poor so I’m not really sure what your point is anymore.

You WILL stop the spread if no one can catch the virus and social distancing, staying within bubbles, self isolating, washing hands, wearing masks in public places - all simple to understand and do - are designed to do just that.

The economy is open and working, people can go about their lives, kids can go to school and the virus doesn't spread.

It's not rocket science.

The simple fact is too many DON'T follow the rules - the bloke in Bolton who couldn't give a fuck for instance.

That's hardly the governments fault is it?

Yet that's where you focus the blame on.

Any government is only as good as the the consent of its people - and if many can't consent to follow the basic rules of preventing new infections, the result is a rise in new infections. obviously - the government didn't do that - the people did - and that is where the issue is.

It's not the government you should be blaming - yet you seem to be totally and utterly fixated on them.

What do you want them to do - turn into a China way of doing things?

It would certainly solve the problem but a hefty price to pay to do so I would say.

All the government can do mitigate the behaviour of a large part of its society - it is in effect the tail of the dog.

Until it becomes the dog itself it will always be on the backfoot as a large part of our society simply won't adhere to behaviour designed to stop the spread.

It's a bit like kicking a man when he's already down to my mind blaming the government for things they just can't control.

The problem is society's behaviour causing the issue and not how effective (or not) the government of the day is in dealing with the effects of that cause.

Maybe the Bolton bloke should be made a national example of - but he won't and the sad thing is that he's probably already seen as a legend in his community and not a selfish, self centred nobend who has probably set off a change of events that will lead to people dying - and that's not be simply trying to be dramatic - that is what will eventually happen if the massive spike in Bolton was caused by him - which does seem probably the case.

Who knows.

All we can do as I've said plenty times before is to know it is in the community, know that the economy needs to be functioning, know that there are plenty of nobheads everywhere who won't keep to the rules, and for some of us know to change our lives the best we can to prevent it from killing us.

That's the world I live in and it isn't Boris who has created this but the Bolton dickhead types throughout the world.

But then again I don't expect the world to change for me - why should it?

Boris/the government isn't the issue - society's non compliance with the basic rules to avoid most/all of this is.

That's my point.

wanderlust wrote:What an absolute load of tripe.

There were zero reported cases where I was in Portugal and the general respect shown to others and their safety was phenomenal in comparison to the UK. 

As it happens nearly all the new cases are in a slum area of Lisbon which surprisingly enough I had no interest in visiting.

And please cut out the petty jibes and attempted imaginary character assassinations all the time. I'm better at it than you but if I cut you down to size on here you'd only ban me again in a fit of pique so shut it.

Hahaha!

Of course you were right, you're right all the time in your head!

Portugal is considering a nationwide lock down when they could just simply lockdown a neighbourhood slum in Lisbon instead?

Yeah right!

And of course you are better at stuff than me and no doubt everyone else too!



Still beating kids 50 years younger than you at football?

okocha wrote:People will do as instructed as long as they can see that ministers and their unelected advisers follow the rules too. Good leaders lead by example, with a clear set of principles and a moral code.
 
But there is presently no respect for a government which is happy to break the law. Tory rule-breaking is currently supported by a majority of Tories in parliament to general disgust here and across the world, so not sure it will be possible to clinch trade deals with countries looking on in amazement at us.

Is there any Tory minister whose word can be trusted?  

I see that the latest opinion poll has Lab and Cons exactly level on 40% and that Starmer is favoured as a prime minister over Johnson.

Okocha, you're like a broken record, do us all a favour and shut up.

Of course Starmer is favoured by many for PM, because he doesn't have the stigma of leading us through a pandemic. No government is going to come out of this smelling of roses.

Natasha Whittam wrote:

Okocha, you're like a broken record, do us all a favour and shut up.

Of course Starmer is favoured by many for PM, because he doesn't have the stigma of leading us through a pandemic. No government is going to come out of this smelling of roses.

Tories are lining up Sunak - he may have the "common touch" despite being the son in law of an average Indian billionaire.

Sluffy wrote:

Hahaha!

Of course you were right, you're right all the time in your head!

Portugal is considering a nationwide lock down when they could just simply lockdown a neighbourhood slum in Lisbon instead?

Yeah right!

And of course you are better at stuff than me and no doubt everyone else too!



Still beating kids 50 years younger than you at football?

As pathetic as it is misguided. 
And no re the footie - I'm quarantining.