The God Delusion

Angry Dad wrote:I have faith it costs me nothing, I won't go to hell for not going to church. I sin all the time I'm human . Doing good things won't get me to heaven either, my sins are forgiven even the ones I have not done yet because I have done one thing that was asked of me. It's a great deal and a very simple one to comply with and if it turns out there's nothing at the end you won't know anything about it,but if there is something ........you really don't want to spend eternity in hell. Just think what eternity means let it sink in ,no end to your torment and don't think you will be with your mates ,you won't you will be alone in your torment drowning in a pit of despair and never ending sorrow but what the fuck Dawkins was a good read and well worth an eternity of despair.

If God were really there judging peoples hearts at the end who would he look more favorably on? A person who was honest and thoughtful who came to the conclusion that he does not believe in God because he has looked at the evidence or the person who says "well I may as well believe in God just in case"?

Keegan wrote:Hipster; have you ever been in love? Not a proposal, don't worry. Have you ever had a broken heart? Do you recall the feeling you had the first time you saw your favourite footballer collect a great pass and turn to goal and you just felt frozen for that split second between his getting off the shot when you were sure this was a goal? these are things that many of us have felt. Can you measure how much more acutely you felt them in comparison to the person next to you? Can you prove that what you feel is love and not infatuation? For those of you that have a child, do you recall the moment you first held that child in your arms? Do you remember that feeling? Is it something that can be measured against the proud Dad in the next cubicle? Do you love your newborn more or less than the guy doing the same thing next to you? Have you ever hated someone? Really despise that smug bastard to the extent that you would inflict bodily harm on them? Can you measure that hatred? Test it in a laboratory to see if your hatred is as pure as you think it is? Faith is something like that.Show me the scientist that can do more than test pulse rates and brain waves in those situations and I'll show you someone who is measuring a person's physical reactions to what he feels.

You can have feelings all day long but it doesn't mean there is anything out there just because you feel it or hope so. The Dawkins arguament is to do with probability and evidence and rationality. And Hipster is correct - faith by definition is to trust in something without any sound reason.

I always wonder what Gods plan was for the billions of Galaxies he created.

I suppose thats another question we can't ask because "god is above questions"

convenient.

Angry Dad wrote:This for all you lot that say you have read the bible and you are asking stupidly who created god. Pay attention now, the bible says god has always existed ,he did not come from anywhere. He is without beginning or end. He is infinite,he is outside the realm of time. Time has no meaning to god he is beyond eternity even. To ask where god came from is to ask a question that cannot be applied to god in the first place because time has no meaning with god in relation to who he is. Time exists when matter exists as humans we can't comprehend the notion of gods existence, as god is not matter he created matter. To us the notion of time is linear, we see a beginning and an end ,god is beyond the chart .Its simple he has always been. How could he have a creator, that would mean he was not god. I will say no more on the matter. If anyone thinks its a fairy story that's up to you good luck with that.

First of all. Because the Bible says xyz does not count as any sort of reassurance or evidence in my opinion. Or indeed in fact.

Secondly. To say God always existed is flawed. And I will explain why this is so: (and before you write it off because you strongly believe the opposite please just read what I say and decide whether it is reasonable or not)

Why is it unreasonable to argue that God was always there?

Well, to start with, the central argument and main reason people believe God exists is because they see the world, life, oceans, the sun and the universe as too complex to have come into existence without an intelligent designer/creator. So, the main reason to think that there must be a God is because life is too complex not to have been designed (and we shall pursue this route for a moment and assume that is correct logic).

The problem with this idea is that if it is reasonable to apply such logic to life as we know it then we must MUST apply the same to the creator who MUST be even more complex. But, if you decide that there is no need to explain God's creation (because he was always there or came into being in an inexplicable way) then why not assert the same about life on earth? Why MUST there have been a creator for earth but not a creator for something MORE complex than earth?

I feel I must add, like Hipster, I am not forcing my views on anyone. I am stating my own views as I wish to discuss them. If anyone could convince me to change my mind then I would be surprised but I would also welcome it as I would always like to think that my way of thinking was the correct one.

Angry Dad wrote: I am a sinner big time I have done bad things I believe a creator exists and ultimately I will have to answer to him.

It might be worth packing your Purdey when that day comes around.

The world as we know it was created because all the building blocks for sustaining life are contained within the earth. Part of the rationale behind this is that we are a perfect distance from the sun. If we were a million miles nearer then we would all melt.

And as science looks further into the cosmos, more and more Earth "twins" are being discovered. Making it, it seems, all the more likely that our position is one of random chance.

It's likely another species is looking back at us, extremely likely.

Hipster_Nebula wrote:And as science looks further into the cosmos, more and more Earth "twins" are being discovered. Making it, it seems, all the more likely that our position is one of random chance.

It's likely another species is looking back at us, extremely likely.

I think so too.

They have discovered dry river beds on Mars which suggests that there may after all have been life on Mars.

Reebok Trotter wrote:The world as we know it was because all the building blocks for sustaining life are contained within the earth. Part of the rationale behind this is that we are a perfect distance from the sun. If we were a million miles nearer then we would all melt.

I am not quite sure what you are saying here but on a related note (I think) see if you follow this point...

The idea of us being in this zone which is just the right distance from the sun and has just the right atmosphere and so on to sustain life means that some people say that it must have been designed that way otherwise we would not be here. But if our planet was too close too the sun for any life then fine we would not be here - but then so be it. The fact that we are here to talk about questions like this means that we necessarily must be in that special zone. I am not certain I am putting that across quite right.

It does not mean it was intentional. It just means that we could only possibly talk about these things if we just happened to be in the right place for it.

Reebok Trotter wrote:They have discovered dry river beds on Mars which suggests that there may after all have been life on Mars.

Odd that God would do that. More questions. Was Mars a first draft?

The human race will at some point need to move to Mars, and beyond if it's serious about survival.

I wonder if that will be necessary or if technology will allow us to travel into deep space as a matter of routine first.

I thought this was a good case for the idea of us being in a favourable position in the universe.

It could be a billion to one chance that our planet is the correct distance from the sun. Pretty long odds and it seems highly unlikely that it could occur by chance. I agree.

But.

If there a a billion billion planets in the universe then that means there are actually 1 billion planets throughout the galaxies which are in the so called 'Goldilocks zone' (ie in the correct position to sustain life (as we know it)).

The odds are not so bad after all now are they?

jayjay23 wrote:I thought this was a good case for the idea of us being in a favourable position in the universe.

It could be a billion to one chance that our planet is the correct distance from the sun. Pretty long odds and it seems highly unlikely that it could occur by chance. I agree.

But.

If there a a billion billion planets in the universe then that means there are actually 1 billion planets throughout the galaxies which are in the so called 'Goldilocks zone' (ie in the correct position to sustain life (as we know it)).

The odds are not so bad after all now are they?

thats what i was getting at JayJay as science explores further and further, the evidence stacks up against the God position.

There are other universes out there. We simply haven't yet gained the technological capability of actually seeing them.

scary.

May I ask a question to the 'believers' here?

What sort of proof or rationale would it take for you to change your mind about the existence of God?
The problem with believing in something which can't be proven is that nobody is going to pop out of the sky and say "oh by the way, God doesn't exist". So, is there anything which would make you falter in your opinion?

On the other hand, my opinion is open to change. But it would have to be pretty dramatic for me to believe God is out there. But I would say that if the clouds parted and a giant man with a beard appeared in the sky and addressed the world I would be pretty impressed. (ps i know that you don't think of God as a man with a beard in the sky, it was an example)

Hipster, what ignited your interest in God and creation?

The 21st December 2012 is marked down as ' the end of days'. Perhaps all will be revealed on that date. I do hope the predictions are incorrect because we are due to play Peterborough on the 22nd December and that is a very winnable game.

jayjay23 wrote:Hipster, what ignited your interest in God and creation?

One of my best mates in school was deeply religious and i was religious too in my teens, probably stopped believing when i was about 16. But i used to wear a crucifix and attend Church on occasion.

but there more and more i heard the more i started to question it, and came to my own conclusions. Looking back i can't believe i was a "believer" for so long.

Hipster_Nebula wrote:I'm sorry but those things are simply chemical reactions and brain activity. I dare say science could explain fully the things you're stating above. Obviously i can't as I'm not a scientist but if you wanted to actually "measure" hatred would you go to lab or a church? I know where i'd go. The instinct and hardwired desires of all species are well documented.

My point was that while feelings can be experienced and even explained, they cannot be measured by any act of science. This means that there is more to life than what science can explain.