Should Freedman get the sack?

Depressing to look back at them now.

carrs wrote:

wanderlust wrote:

carrs wrote:

bwfc1874 wrote:

carrs wrote:You think there was planning. Who did it Baldrick ?
If you want to know my opinion read the forum. I ain't repeating myself for those foolish enough to try and justify the dynamic duo keeping their jobs.

Where in that post did I try and justify them keeping their jobs?

I'd be absolutely amazed if everyone at the club spent all summer sat on their arse doing nothing, so if you're trying to claim that was the case some evidence would be nice as it's a pretty ridiculous claim.

But my opinion wasn't the point, I was asking you to give yours though as I had no idea what it was (god knows why you think I should). Is there actually anything to it other than the usual - dopey Dougie, LL's a pensioner, a petty insult etc?

You do know when LL was born and what age that makes him. It is normal to call them pensioners. As for Doug anybody who has a record such as his with his team selections and post match comments truly deserves the title dopey.
Facts not insults you see.


You mentioned planning first so show us some evidence of planning by DF LL in preparation for a campaign to see us promoted.

Can I have a go at that?
First they brought in a decent LB to replace Alonso - Tierney.
They bought a top quality premiership standard midfield general - Spearing
They offloaded Kevin Davies who had done nothing for months and the goals had dried up.
They brought in Beckford and Moritz to add a bit of quality.
They dumped 7 development players who were not good enough and have bought several better quality replacements resulting in an improvement in U21 results and a pipeline for the future. Odelusi and White were given a chance and Bolger made the bench.
They made a few decent loan signings and tried to get Dawson back.
They sold Ngog to free up some transfer cash.
Then they got fucked over by Gartside, leaving them with only one option - survive, get players back from injury and don't buy anyone until the has-beens contracts are up or youth players come through.

There you go.
Apart from they did know the score with finances before they started. No planning on what to do come match days ! Genius work by the duo doing all that and then forgetting about a football match. Never mind a relegation scrap is always good for getting the crowds in.

I think one criticism that could be levelled at Dougie is that he is trying to play a 451 system that requires midfielders capable of putting a real shift in to get up and support the striker as well as closing down when we ain't got the ball - and we just don't have players capable of doing it as yet.

Copper Dragon wrote:Isn't hindsight a wonderful thing Wanderlust?   

It is when you were right in the first place  

We should have a Hall of Shame.

Glos - I have huge respect for your opinion on matters BWFC but what were you thinking when you wrote "one to watch - Charlton"  

this all goes to show that people with no affinity to Bolton ie Bookies and other football writers/pundits had a look at our squad and deemed it good enough to be challenging for promotion, looking at the list on the other page the bookies had it more or less correct for other teams.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing but i for one expected an awful lot more from us.

Yes the players have been poor but in the end the blame lands with the manager. He picks the team, the (negative) tactics and who comes in and out. He has failed on all counts.

"Yes the players have been poor but in the end the blame lands with the manager. He picks the team, the (negative) tactics and who comes in and out. He has failed on all counts."


Absolutely spot on.

I don't get what's supposedly negative about 451 Norpig. Surely the idea is that we have a least 4 extra players making runs into the box when we're attacking - plus an extra player closing down when we're defending.
Nowt wrong with the system, just need better players to execute it properly. Most teams that play a 442 usually have one striker playing deeper anyway i.e. 451.

Breadman wrote:Forget all the Coyle stuff and what happened last season, let's consider the here and now.

Freedman sets the team up to try and contain the opposition (irrespective of who we're playing and whether or not we're at home or away), we play with a lone striker and no wingers. 

The midfield is full of defensive-minded players who offer precious little going forward.

Freedman bemoans the fact that we aren't scoring enough, but whose fault is that?

It's his because he sets the team up and it's his system that's failing.

But he won't change, we're in 20th place and there's a real chance we may go down.

And it'll be his fault and that's why he should go now.

You're right, although yesterday we had the better of things when both Medo and Spearing were on and but for lack of movement and poor passing we'd have got a result.
Then after the pen, he put 2 wingers on (Eagles and Lee) and they did nothing.
Whichever system he tries, we just don't have good enough players to make things happen in the final third.

wanderlust wrote:

I think one criticism that could be levelled at Dougie is that he is trying to play a 451 system that requires midfielders capable of putting a real shift in to get up and support the striker as well as closing down when we ain't got the ball - and we just don't have players capable of doing it as yet.

It's February and still not working, why hasn't he shaken it up and worked out how to get something from what he has got.
DF is supposed to be a football manager its about time he acted like one.

Judging by his performance this season that would be signing on this Thursday

wanderlust wrote:

Breadman wrote:Forget all the Coyle stuff and what happened last season, let's consider the here and now.

Freedman sets the team up to try and contain the opposition (irrespective of who we're playing and whether or not we're at home or away), we play with a lone striker and no wingers. 

The midfield is full of defensive-minded players who offer precious little going forward.

Freedman bemoans the fact that we aren't scoring enough, but whose fault is that?

It's his because he sets the team up and it's his system that's failing.

But he won't change, we're in 20th place and there's a real chance we may go down.

And it'll be his fault and that's why he should go now.

You're right, although yesterday we had the better of things when both Medo and Spearing were on and but for lack of movement and poor passing we'd have got a result.
Then after the pen, he put 2 wingers on (Eagles and Lee) and they did nothing.
Whichever system he tries, we just don't have good enough players to make things happen in the final third.

Fair play, Lusty - you were there and I wasn't, so I'll bow to your assessment.

I'm just getting more and more frustrated by the fact that we seem to be spiralling downwards alarmingly, but Freedman doesn't seem to be capable of taking the initiative and instilling any belief in the players.

And that's his job.

wanderlust wrote:I don't get what's supposedly negative about 451 Norpig. Surely the idea is that we have a least 4 extra players making runs into the box when we're attacking - plus an extra player closing down when we're defending.
Nowt wrong with the system, just need better players to execute it properly. Most teams that play a 442 usually have one striker playing deeper anyway i.e. 451.

i would say we play more of a 4231 formation more than a 451, the two holding players are what let it down whichever way we think it is. DF is too negative.

We actually looked better a few weeks ago when we played 442 but a diamond id midfield with Spearing the deep player and Mavies behind the front 2, but we can't play this now as we don't even have 2 strikers!

bwfc1874 wrote:First step would be re-uniting Mills and Ream, the stats speak for themselves in this regard.

Exactly. There is no possible reason to keep picking Zat Knight when it's clear (and has been for years) that he is the biggest weak link. He should have kept Mills and Ream together and picked a younger player at left back.

You keep your best players in their best positions.

Even though we've conceded a shit load of goals since Knight returned to the team Dougie would rather persist with it than admit he fucked up.

Even the biggest happy clappers can't defend this.

Don't think it's anything to do with not wanting to admit he fucked up, more to do with thinking we're more solid with Ream at LB than a kid.

Knight's individual performances haven't been too bad, but for whatever reason he seems impossible to form a successful partnership with. Whereas Mills and Ream seemed to develop a good understanding. Said it a million times but partnerships are hugely important in the team, we need to build one at CB and in CM with Medo and Trotter IMO.

Natasha Whittam wrote:

bwfc1874 wrote:First step would be re-uniting Mills and Ream, the stats speak for themselves in this regard.

Exactly. There is no possible reason to keep picking Zat Knight when it's clear (and has been for years) that he is the biggest weak link. He should have kept Mills and Ream together and picked a younger player at left back.

You keep your best players in their best positions.

Even though we've conceded a shit load of goals since Knight returned to the team Dougie would rather persist with it than admit he fucked up.

Even the biggest happy clappers can't defend this.

Knight was our best player yesterday and Ream was excellent at left back, although it could be argued that the back four looked so dominant because they had 2 holding midfielders in front of them for two thirds of the match.
Ream looked like a natural LB to me - possibly better than Tierney. We already know he's decent in midfield, but I guess he can't play everywhere.
I we loan a decent CB in the window, I'd like to see Ream stay at LB for a while if he can maintain the level of performance he had yesterday.

I didn't see the game yesterday Wander but my theory on why he looked good yesterday is because of Ipswichs lack of width during the game, hence no real trouble for him to deal with down his side and allowing him to get forward.

But when he is up against a half decent winger he gets skinned alive, to me whenever I have seen him at left back he looks very uncomfortable when dealing with a pacy winger.

aaron_bwfc wrote:I didn't see the game yesterday Wander but my theory on why he looked good yesterday is because of Ipswichs lack of width during the game, hence no real trouble for him to deal with down his side and allowing him to get forward.

But when he is up against a half decent winger he gets skinned alive, to me whenever I have seen him at left back he looks very uncomfortable when dealing with a pacy winger.

He had Jay Tabb in his pocket and only got outmuscled by Nouble (who is a brick shithouse) once. so I think he did well. Can only think of one cross into our box from his side all game and he cleared up some nasty passes. Maybe he just had a good game?

wanderlust wrote:

Copper Dragon wrote:Isn't hindsight a wonderful thing Wanderlust?   

Glos - I have huge respect for your opinion on matters BWFC but what were you thinking when you wrote "one to watch - Charlton"  

Wander, I cringed whan I saw that, and hoped nobody would mention it   
I'd been reading an article on how they were going to go forward, etc, and thought it looked good. I have to admit, that nearly all my predictions this season are prettyh poor. Its a knack I have  

Back him or sack him? I don't know the answer to this question. We can't afford to sack him and his management team so we are told by some. Gardening leave is not the answer as the cost at the end of the day is the same. Not to mention the cost of replacing him. Don't think JP is the answer. If were going for old boys then maybe Phil Brown or bring back Colin Todd from his Danish exile. Most of the popular names are unaffordable or unavailable awaiting pay offs. 
Assuming we do nothing/back him  and he persists with his 4-2-3-1 formation then he needs specialist full backs that can get up and down the line to support the front man. Ream is a stop gap and will never be a full back as long as he has a hole in his ar$e and that is not intended to be a criticism of him. I do  not believe for one minute we could not pick up a specialist full back from somewhere for the season to give us breathing space to find  someone more long term. I know left backs are in short supply at the moment but were not playing Premier/Champions league football and still have some creditable reputation. The lack of full backs pushing up has resulted in the hoof ball to the lonely front man we have witnessed. Yes we do need Dawson in place for when Zat sods off to the MLS
Sorry to bore you all, rant over

wanderlust wrote:
Knight was our best player yesterday and Ream was excellent at left back

More bollocks. You see one game live and Knight is brilliant.

Knight is the reason we ship so many goals, the stats speak for themselves.

I was having a little think about the downturn of our performances for both Coyle and Freedman, and each one followed a seriously disappointing event, if not personal disaster, for each. Coyle never recovered from the Wembley hiding, and the current team had to start all over again, missing out on promotion on goal difference. In a notoriously confidence-related occupation, I think it is up to the manager to get the players to regroup, settle down, and move forward. It would seem that in both cases, this didn't/hasn't happened. Without doubt, when it goes on for as long as it did/has, then a lot of the responsibility has to fall on the players, and not just the manager. However, if their way of play is changed, players moved around, dropped, or played out of position, they will never regain their confidence or form, with obvious results. I think Dougie has decided its too late to make wholesale, (or at least critical), changes, and has decided to make-do-and-mend, until the end of the season. Like Coyle, he doesn't seem to have the ability to change his approach, and meet head-on a multi-faceted problem like a football club. He's run out of ideas, the same as Coyle, and Megson, did before him. Unfortunately, whilst Gartside sits on his hands, were stuck with this miserable situation.

carrs wrote:
You do know when LL was born and what age that makes him. It is normal to call them pensioners.

Lenny Lawrence is actually respected by other managers. One manager wrote in his autobiography, " There were others of the old school who were survivors because they had a work ethic you had to admire. If I went to a reserve game, John Rudge and Lenny Lawrence would be there."