Time for a rethink?

Hipster_Nebula wrote:

Soul Kitchen wrote:

Hipster_Nebula wrote:It goes a lot lot deeper than "It's not as bad as alcohol." This kind of thing is a philosophical debate for me. 

But i'll let the scientists quantify the literal harm and they have.

You are paranoid and talking to yourself. Have you been on the wacky stuff?

Just responding to Doffcockers point.

The graph is utterly meaningless.

For a start, what do the numbers along the x axis represent? Drugs? People? Deaths? Hospitalisations? Slaps across the face? Are they percentages of a population? If so, what population are we talking about?

I've failed GCSE Maths coursework for drawing better graphs than that.

I received a smug put-down for pointing that out earlier.......

you know my views above.

just wanted to say, hipster and his adversarys on this thread is really entertaining me.

bravo sirs

yes im pissed, a bit.

match was nil nil, eating food now.

Not really gonna get much of a debate going are we. 

the graph was compiled by a group of scientists who've worked with drugs for years and 2 drug specialists who used their own data to rank the drugs harms on a number of criteria (grouped) 

Easy to take the piss, and obviously everything is up for debate but I think it's a decent starting point when expert scientists offer their findings through study. 

anecdotal evidence like "I knew a bloke who died taking......" doesn't really move me much to be honest I'm sure we all know someone who's done something negative with a substance. 

like i said I'm more philosophical about it, I'd rather see drug legalisation or full decriminalisation for users like in Portugal, why should someone else decide how i should "get high" or abuse my own body. And the evidence suggests better availability actually cuts use. 

but you're never going to get "perfect policy" when it comes to drugs because, most, can cause instant death.

I know a lot of youngsters like to dabble in cannabis but hand on heart, I cannot condone it. I have seen good intelligent people end up as zombies having smoked cannabis. I agree that alcohol is harmful, but most alcoholics don't become burglars or steal their families prized possessions to fuel their habit.

Reebok Trotter wrote:I know a lot of youngsters like to dabble in cannabis but hand on heart, I cannot condone it. I have seen good intelligent people end up as zombies having smoked cannabis. I agree that alcohol is harmful, but most alcoholics don't become burglars or steal their families prized possessions to fuel their habit.    

No they kill someone driving to the shop to get more. 

(more anecdotal nonsense)

as could people who dabble with drugs...

Science supports that weed is not particularly harmful or addictive, so I'll believe that over a couple of stories, but that's not the point of the thread. The point is people are going to get it just as easily as if a legally owned shop was available (easier in many cases door to door service). The 'war on drugs' has failed dismally so what is the point in deluding ourselves any longer? Take the economic benefits and control who it's sold to.

Hipster_Nebula wrote:

Reebok Trotter wrote:I know a lot of youngsters like to dabble in cannabis but hand on heart, I cannot condone it. I have seen good intelligent people end up as zombies having smoked cannabis. I agree that alcohol is harmful, but most alcoholics don't become burglars or steal their families prized possessions to fuel their habit.    

No they kill someone driving to the shop to get more. 

(more anecdotal nonsense)

Seriously Hipster, I am speaking from experience. A number of people from my generation dabbled with cannabis and ended up going on to heroin. They were decent people who were constantly looking for another ' high '.

I know at least three who ended up dying from an overdose of heroin. It's not nonsense. Drug addicts tend to lose all track of reality and end up behaving appallingly to fund their habit.

I fully accept that alcohol abuse is a blight on society, especially at weekends in our pubs and clubs but I certainly don't feel comfortable at writing off cannabis as simply a ' recreational drug' because it is anything but.

I'm sure you are RT. 

I never met my granddad because he was an alcoholic and fell in a river, I only knew my gran for a few years because she got lung cancer. 

but it's irrelevant in a debate so far reaching, which is my point.

and also alcohol is a drug as I'm sure you know, so lets not differentiate between "drug addicts" and "alcohol abuse"

I once read that smoking 3 spliffs a day was as bad as smoking 20 cigarettes a day and you're more likely to get cancer if you smoke cannabis. If Cannabis was made legal and more accessible would it not eventually cost the NHS many millions if not billions eventually, through lung disease, cancer, psychological issues etc?

Actually, there is a slight difference. Alcoholics tend to live a secular lifestyle and as long as they get their fix they tend to keep themselves to themselves.

Drug Addicts on the other hand tend to go to any lengths to fund their habit. At least half of the heroin addicts who grew up in the sink estates in the seventies are now dead. Those that are still alive look like extras from the next episode of The Walking Dead.

There's a massive difference between drug use and drug addiction RT. Smoking at the weekends and working in the week is far from being the Walking Dead. Equally there are plenty of alcoholics who sit at home, alone and feed their addiction. I can't agree with any of what you've written above.

My main concern regarding cannabis use is that a number of people end up trying it and then get hooked and go on to try stronger stuff like heroin.

I know too much alcohol is bad for your liver but when drunk in moderation it doesn't pose a great health risk. I do worry though, that not enough is known about the effects of cannabis on the brain cells.

bwfc1874 wrote:There's a massive difference between drug use and drug addiction RT. Smoking at the weekends and working in the week is far from being the Walking Dead. Equally there are plenty of alcoholics who sit at home, alone and feed their addiction. I can't agree with any of what you've written above.

Why try to defend your illegal habit?
I know, it's because you like an argument!
Bottom line is if you came into work 'floating in a tin can' I'd blow you out, just like anybody who came in work intoxicated with alcohol, whatever time of day.
Alcohol and drugs don't mix with employment. Anybody with a habit for either deserves their P45.

Soul Kitchen wrote:

bwfc1874 wrote:There's a massive difference between drug use and drug addiction RT. Smoking at the weekends and working in the week is far from being the Walking Dead. Equally there are plenty of alcoholics who sit at home, alone and feed their addiction. I can't agree with any of what you've written above.

Why try to defend your illegal habit?
I know, it's because you like an argument!
Bottom line is if you came into work 'floating in a tin can' I'd blow you out, just like anybody who came in work intoxicated with alcohol, whatever time of day.
Alcohol and drugs don't mix with employment. Anybody with a habit for either deserves their P45.

Who said anything about smoking at work? It's worrying how every thread goes over your head, I don't know why you bother contributing to be honest.

Reebok Trotter wrote:My main concern regarding cannabis use is that a number of people end up trying it and then get hooked and go on to try stronger stuff like heroin.

I know too much alcohol is bad for your liver but when drunk in moderation it doesn't pose a great health risk. I do worry though, that not enough is known about the effects of cannabis on the brain cells.

Plenty of studies suggest weed isn't a gateway drug in fact;

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/2538065.stm

http://healthland.time.com/2010/10/29/marijuna-as-a-gateway-drug-the-myth-that-will-not-die/

You're right though about moderation, that's important for all of these things. So legalise it, ensure it's not sold to under 18s, take the economic benefits and educate on it's use better. As I said previously in many ways it's easier to get it now than it would be from a shop.

bwfc1874 wrote:

Soul Kitchen wrote:

bwfc1874 wrote:There's a massive difference between drug use and drug addiction RT. Smoking at the weekends and working in the week is far from being the Walking Dead. Equally there are plenty of alcoholics who sit at home, alone and feed their addiction. I can't agree with any of what you've written above.

Why try to defend your illegal habit?
I know, it's because you like an argument!
Bottom line is if you came into work 'floating in a tin can' I'd blow you out, just like anybody who came in work intoxicated with alcohol, whatever time of day.
Alcohol and drugs don't mix with employment. Anybody with a habit for either deserves their P45.

Who said anything about smoking at work? It's worrying how every thread goes over your head, I don't know why you bother contributing to be honest.

So you don't get a hangover from your tabs the day after?
What is worrying is your lack of reality, I wonder what brings that on?
I contributed to exercise my freedom of speech. The fact that it got up your nostrils was a bonus!!!

No need to fall out over this issue. There is a strong argument that legalising cannabis is the way forward. It seems to work okay in Switzerland and Holland.

My main concern is where do you draw the line? If you legalize cannabis, what is next? We already have heroin addicts getting NHS prescriptions for methadone.

Some people may have a higher tolerance level than others. A number of young sensible people have died by taking just one ecstasy tablet.

All of these illegal drugs are hallucinogenic by their very nature.

Soul Kitchen wrote:

So you don't get a hangover from your tabs the day after?  
What is worrying is your lack of reality, I wonder what brings that on?
I contributed to exercise my freedom of speech. The fact that it got up your nostrils was a bonus!!!

I don't drink or smoke in the week, and no by comparison to a hangover the morning after smoking weed is absolutely nothing, I don't think you know what you're talking about.