Is Neil Lennon still the right man?

i wish i didn't go at the moment to be honest it's depressing. No wonder my sons a blue 

Norpig wrote:i'm starting to think the same as you Breaders, he doesn't seem to be able to motivate the players and avoiding relegation would be a result now.

I'm starting to think we (as a fanbase) look into factors like motivation and passion too much when we're playing shit. I was as guilty as anyone of that under Megson and Freedman, but you have to say that it's happened too many times now where we've brought a manager in and he's done alright at first - brought the best out of a number of players - before it all goes tits up.

It'd be really nice if we could end the pattern, stop relying on honeymoon periods to steady the ship, and let a manager build a squad of players that give 100% all the time not just for a few months here and there in hope of a new contract.

Yes, on that basis, there is an argument to have not sacked Freedman but there were fundamental flaws in the playing approach and mentality that were there for all to see under Dougie. Relatively speaking, there's not been many complaints about Lennon's tactics, selections, substitutions etc. It's more just a general agreement that we're playing crap.

Breadman wrote:CYL.

Keep up.

Consistent? He was shit for about two years.

Natasha Whittam wrote:

Breadman wrote:CYL.

Keep up.

Consistent? He was shit for about two years.

That's not the point I was making though, is it?

He was playing well under Lennon and was probably our stand-out player during that period, so what did they do?

Flogged him.

For peanuts.

Breadman wrote:

That's not the point I was making though, is it?

He was playing well under Lennon and was probably our stand-out player during that period, so what did they do?

Flogged him.

For peanuts.

He was out of contract in the Summer. They had no choice.

Anyway, you said best players. Name me these other "best players" we sold?

I'm not having a pop, I just don't remember any good players

Would Ream be a guaranteed starter if he was still with us: Yes or no?

I was thinking Ream and CYL...

doffcocker wrote:

Norpig wrote:i'm starting to think the same as you Breaders, he doesn't seem to be able to motivate the players and avoiding relegation would be a result now.

I'm starting to think we (as a fanbase) look into factors like motivation and passion too much when we're playing shit. I was as guilty as anyone of that under Megson and Freedman, but you have to say that it's happened too many times now where we've brought a manager in and he's done alright at first - brought the best out of a number of players - before it all goes tits up.

It'd be really nice if we could end the pattern, stop relying on honeymoon periods to steady the ship, and let a manager build a squad of players that give 100% all the time not just for a few months here and there in hope of a new contract.

Yes, on that basis, there is an argument to have not sacked Freedman but there were fundamental flaws in the playing approach and mentality that were there for all to see under Dougie. Relatively speaking, there's not been many complaints about Lennon's tactics, selections, substitutions etc. It's more just a general agreement that we're playing crap.

Agree we need a period of stability if we are ever going to rebuild but disagree with your last sentence. He hasn't got the tactics and selections right IMO although that has in part been dictated to him by injuries.
I just don't think he's got the midfield working as it should and hasn't achieved the right balance as yet. At the beginning of the season he was bold enough to push players on to join the attack which left us exposed at the back and we conceded loads.  Since then they have provided more protection, but at the expense of creating chances at the other end.
I've said this all along just as I have said survival would be an achievement since pre-season so I can't agree our problems are just about playing crap.
I also think he let some of our younger talent leave in order to bring in short term solutions (mainly old players) who haven't turned out to be any kind of solution.
He could have started the season picking our youngsters wherever possible and experimenting with systems that suited them - and we'd be no worse off than we are now. But at least we'd have 8 or 10 young players who were battle-hardened and totally committed to the cause who could form the core of our squad for years to come - instead of a bunch of loanee journeymen and has-beens who will have zero residual value to BWFC next year. If he'd thrown in the kids plus a sprinkling of experience from the off they may have been slaughtered to begin with but if he'd stuck with them through thick and thin (managerial suicide perhaps) they'd be proper players with a siege mentality and superb attitude by now - a force to be reckoned with.
Maybe next season?

wanderlust wrote:

doffcocker wrote:

Norpig wrote:i'm starting to think the same as you Breaders, he doesn't seem to be able to motivate the players and avoiding relegation would be a result now.

I'm starting to think we (as a fanbase) look into factors like motivation and passion too much when we're playing shit. I was as guilty as anyone of that under Megson and Freedman, but you have to say that it's happened too many times now where we've brought a manager in and he's done alright at first - brought the best out of a number of players - before it all goes tits up.

It'd be really nice if we could end the pattern, stop relying on honeymoon periods to steady the ship, and let a manager build a squad of players that give 100% all the time not just for a few months here and there in hope of a new contract.

Yes, on that basis, there is an argument to have not sacked Freedman but there were fundamental flaws in the playing approach and mentality that were there for all to see under Dougie. Relatively speaking, there's not been many complaints about Lennon's tactics, selections, substitutions etc. It's more just a general agreement that we're playing crap.

Agree we need a period of stability if we are ever going to rebuild but disagree with your last sentence. He hasn't got the tactics and selections right IMO although that has in part been dictated to him by injuries.
I just don't think he's got the midfield working as it should and hasn't achieved the right balance as yet. At the beginning of the season he was bold enough to push players on to join the attack which left us exposed at the back and we conceded loads.  Since then they have provided more protection, but at the expense of creating chances at the other end.
I've said this all along just as I have said survival would be an achievement since pre-season so I can't agree our problems are just about playing crap.
I also think he let some of our younger talent leave in order to bring in short term solutions (mainly old players) who haven't turned out to be any kind of solution.
He could have started the season picking our youngsters wherever possible and experimenting with systems that suited them - and we'd be no worse off than we are now. But at least we'd have 8 or 10 young players who were battle-hardened and totally committed to the cause who could form the core of our squad for years to come - instead of a bunch of loanee journeymen and has-beens who will have zero residual value to BWFC next year. If he'd thrown in the kids plus a sprinkling of experience from the off they may have been slaughtered to begin with but if he'd stuck with them through thick and thin (managerial suicide perhaps) they'd be proper players with a siege mentality and superb attitude by now - a force to be reckoned with.
Maybe next season?

Don't think that approach would work either. There's no one at the club who in midfield can dictate games, create chances and the midfield don't have a goal in them. Lennon doesn't know who to pick and is in panic mode.



He's fallen into the trap of picking fans favourites and it hasn't worked and in my opinion has no where to go. He should resign, but, he'll battle on until January when our relegation will have been confirmed.

Also spent too much time looking for balance in the squad, when we've been crying out for a midfield creator / general for ages as well as a goal scorer. Our midfielders are the worst in the division and along with no goal scorer we're going down.


This is almost the identical pattern to the eighties and I can see us slip even further down.
We should sell as many as we can in January and promote youth. Vela, Davies, Spearing, Pratley, Danns  need to go, if not in January certainly in the summer. Vela isn't up to it and Mark Davies has been a poor buy.

I'm not going to defend him as I think that as a manager its part of his responsibility  to motivate, to strategise and to get the team winning.
But as regards a goal scorer he's re-signed Heskey, brought in Dobbie and Madine and recently added Ameobi all of whom are supposed to be goal scorers(I hesitate to use the word 'striker').The trouble is that two of them(Heskey and Madine) aren't up to the task, Dobbie is rarely used and Ameobi after just a couple of games is crocked.
Add to that the creative midfielders (Mark Davies and Clough) are either injured or off their game. Pratley ,having previously been in the fans eyes a disaster is now seen as the best midfielder we've got.
 He's brought in a completely new back line all of whom individually ( apart from Wilson, in my opinion) have shown real signs of being efficient players-particularly Gouano and Derik.
In Spearing and Vela he's got a couple of decent defensive midfielders. Silva shows some decent touches -but of course he's out now for weeks. Add to that Bratten who again might turn out to be a decent attacking midfielder
It seems to me that individually there's now enough in this squad to move up the table if he could get all of them fit for playing and simply let them settle as a team. But he tinkers too much and plays people out of position.
Although it's flavour of the month to blame Gartside -it's not really his fault. If you're broke ,then you're broke and with the best will in the world you can't conjure up non-existent money- we've reached our borrowing capacity and that's a simple fact.
Lennon has brought in a substantial number of players- but he still can't get them to gel. The only real mistake I think he's made was Madine who has simply not produced anything to justify his existence as a first team choice.
I personally don't think we'll go down - although it's not on view at the minute there is some quality in this side and even if they're playing for  transfers to new clubs, then I think they will pull it round.
The only players I would get rid of asap are Heskey as he contributes nothing and Kamara who's head is obviously somewhere else.
I may be an idiot ,or an eternal optimist but I think we'll be in this division next year with far better prospects than we have at the minute.

Some good points there Rammy but I think that Gartside is in a big way responsible for the mess we are in now. He may not pick the team as it is in the present day but the situation the club finds itself in is in large part down to the way the club has been run and the decisions that have been made at boardroom level.

The points you make regarding the players we have also suggest Neil Lennon isn't the right man anymore at all. In much the same way Dougie went, he has no idea how to turn this around. The team changes week on week and he has no idea of his best team. Having said that, the players need to be giving more. Even if the manager is a bit shit, they are still professional footballers and should be able to do the basics. Pass to a teammate, put a decent cross in, have a shot on target etc.

rammywhite wrote:
It seems to me that individually there's now enough in this squad to move up the table if he could get all of them fit for playing and simply let them settle as a team. But he tinkers too much and plays people out of position.


I may be an idiot ,or an eternal optimist but I think we'll be in this division next year with far better prospects than we have at the minute.

I agree with a lot of what you write Rammy and it's particularly relevant in a thread about whether NL is the right manager, but for me the players haven't shown enough quality and the manager hasn't shown enough nous. As you point out, one can affect the other.
There's a lot to like about Neil Lennon but I do have concerns and I think the common theme is that he demands more from these players than they are capable of delivering - perhaps because they are not as good players as he was or he is used to managing.

So I think that NL is flawed inasmuch that he doesn't seem capable of recognising their limitations and setting a system and tactics that will succeed working within those limitations.

Instead, he demands that they attack like the charge of the light brigade in an increasingly desperate bid for glory which is why they sometimes give the appearance of being competitive but that just leaves us open at the back so this cycle of nearly getting there and then conceding continues week on week.

We are now 4 points adrift and the worse our situation becomes, the more desperate for goals - and the more exposed they are likely to become. 

There is still enough time to change things providing Lennon can calm down, take stock of the situation, swallow some pride and switch the focus from attack to defence and controlling the game which will help us start to pick up points rather than trying to play attractive, cavalier footie with front players who aren't good enough to carry it off.

Unfortunately for our survival prospects, I'm not convinced NL is either capable or willing to do that. His pride will be our downfall.

Norpig wrote:i'm starting to think the same as you Breaders, he doesn't seem to be able to motivate the players and avoiding relegation would be a result now.

Most will probably agree, however

'You can't polish a turd'!

Barryjw wrote:
Most will probably agree, however

'You can't polish a turd'!

Yeah, but he brought these turds to the club.

Natasha Whittam wrote:

Barryjw wrote:
Most will probably agree, however

'You can't polish a turd'!

Yeah, but he brought these turds to the club.

Sadly it's the market we deal in

Barryjw wrote:
Sadly it's the market we deal in

There's a turd market? It explains a lot.

Natasha Whittam wrote:

Barryjw wrote:
Sadly it's the market we deal in

There's a turd market? It explains a lot.

Yep. All the top flight clubs with millions to spend shop in the first market....

When we inevitably get relegated will we be restricted to trying to sign players from clubs playing alongside the banks of a large Scottish river - The Forth Market?

Breadman wrote:When we inevitably get relegated will we be restricted to trying to sign players from clubs playing alongside the banks of a large Scottish river - The Forth Market?

On balance, I think the world is slightly better off with that comment in it.

Anything less than 4 points from the next 3 games and it's time to move him on. December looks like a tricky set of fixtures which could leave us completely adrift if things don't turn around.

I really want him to succeed and think he would if only he had the right tools at his disposal. With nothing to spend it's going to be nigh on impossible for anyone to elevate us but surely we have to try something? If he isn't capable of getting anything more from the players then we have no choice but to find out if someone else can squeeze more out of them. I dread to think who that is though given that it will be another Gartside appointment.

I really do hope that Lennon is the one to get us out of this mess though.