Thank God For The Tories

This is why I'm so disillusioned with modern politics.

You can say what you want nowadays with apparent impunity even if it subsequently turns out that you were lying your head off.

Nobody is accountable anymore and it just gets brushed off and is acceptable.

And clowns like Trump and Farage know this and exploit it.

They literally just say whatever they think their core vote wants to here, even if it's obviously a load of made-up bullshit because they know they'll never be held fully accountable and will get away with it.

And it's going a stage further now.

In the past, if a politician got caught out telling a whopper, they were vilified in the press and had to accept the consequences.

However, nowadays we live in a world where all people like Trump have to do is wage a campaign against the "main stream media" and brand anything they don't like as "fake news" and they know their followers will accept this and all shout "Yeah! Dishonest media! Boo!"

And it's dangerous because the media is part of the accountability process and if it's no longer a useful tool in holding rogue politicians to account, they can pretty much do what they want with impunity.

And that's how dictatorships start.

I also believe that a lot of this dishonesty isn't seen as such. With the advent of social media, (and forums), everybody feels that what they say is the right approach, and they demand to be heard. The problem with this, is that no matter what anyone says, especially politicians and the press, there is always an army of posters who will agree, and will support the most outlandish of claims or stories. 
In this media world of numbers, hundreds of thousands can be picked up very easily, and can be used as justification for whatever the topic. The more this happens, the more confusing the picture, and the less likely we will have a satisfactory outcome. 
As a simple example, take the more strident posters on here, (we all have our moments), and multiply them by 500,000, and then try to imagine the outcome.

gloswhite wrote:I also believe that a lot of this dishonesty isn't seen as such. With the advent of social media, (and forums), everybody feels that what they say is the right approach, and they demand to be heard. The problem with this, is that no matter what anyone says, especially politicians and the press, there is always an army of posters who will agree, and will support the most outlandish of claims or stories. 
In this media world of numbers, hundreds of thousands can be picked up very easily, and can be used as justification for whatever the topic. The more this happens, the more confusing the picture, and the less likely we will have a satisfactory outcome. 

Totally agree with both you and Bread but what exacerbates the problem is that once a lie has been told, even if it is subsequently retracted, some of the mud sticks either because a) the lie is what people wanted to hear in the first place and they won't change their minds just because the liar fessed up or b) "there's no smoke without fire" where people form negative opinions despite the lack of evidence to support them.

When you add the lack of sanctions or punishments after a lie has been retracted and it's a no brainer tactic to employ every time because there are no bad consequences and a potentially huge upside.

The law needs to change.

wanderlust wrote:

gloswhite wrote:I also believe that a lot of this dishonesty isn't seen as such. With the advent of social media, (and forums), everybody feels that what they say is the right approach, and they demand to be heard. The problem with this, is that no matter what anyone says, especially politicians and the press, there is always an army of posters who will agree, and will support the most outlandish of claims or stories. 
In this media world of numbers, hundreds of thousands can be picked up very easily, and can be used as justification for whatever the topic. The more this happens, the more confusing the picture, and the less likely we will have a satisfactory outcome. 

Totally agree with both you and Bread but what exacerbates the problem is that once a lie has been told, even if it is subsequently retracted, some of the mud sticks either because a) the lie is what people wanted to hear in the first place and they won't change their minds just because the liar fessed up or b) "there's no smoke without fire" where people form negative opinions despite the lack of evidence to support them.

When you add the lack of sanctions or punishments after a lie has been retracted and it's a no brainer tactic to employ every time because there are no bad consequences and a potentially huge upside.

The law needs to change.

I agree, especially as the name and shame approach no longer works. Integrity is a commodity in very short supply.

okocha wrote:The Conservatives promised, in their 2015 manifesto, a real-terms increase in the schools budget during this Parliament. The manifesto also said: "Under a future Conservative government, the amount of money following your child into school will be protected. As the number of pupils increases, so will the amount of money in our schools."
But despite widespread concern over funding pressures, there was no extra money earmarked for school revenue budgets in the Budget last week.


Yet another broken manifesto promise.

Which brings me back to the point that the electorate - as typified by Nat's comment - seems to think that the Government is doing a good job despite actually doing very little other than cutting budgets and services and overseeing the loss of worker's and individual rights gained in the EU.

It's as if the nation is sleepwalking through the whole experience and smiling as our quality of life continues to be eroded.

It doesn't help that almost all the press is very right wing and rarely criticise the Tories.

And of course there is no effective opposition. Thanks Jeremy.

Do we really need HS 2 and Trident renewal at this particular point?? Enough money there to offset all the cuts and restore public services to the point where we can be proud of ourselves by making people's lives easier. Then set about collecting appropriate taxes from rich companies and individuals, and leave the poor and the JAMs to their meagre pleasures.
Only then should we be thinking about getting to Birmingham a bit quicker and taking it upon ourselves to be able to glory in the obscenity of weaponry which can blow others to kingdom come.

By the way (and before I forget it), the thick skin of George Osborne becomes even thicker as this total failure of a man senses no shame in making himself the most loathed figure in British society. Sitting in the first class section of a train without paying is one thing, but having numerous massively-paid jobs whilst pretending to be able to function as an MP is quite another!

okocha wrote:Do we really need HS 2 and Trident renewal at this particular point?? Enough money there to offset all the cuts and restore public services to the point where we can be proud of ourselves by making people's lives easier. Then set about collecting appropriate taxes from rich companies and individuals, and leave the poor and the JAMs to their meagre pleasures.
Only then should we be thinking about getting to Birmingham a bit quicker and taking it upon ourselves to be able to glory in the obscenity of weaponry which can blow others to kingdom come.

Much as I believe in capital investment I can't see that there is any rational reason for HS2. It will cost a fortune and save a few minutes on the journey. It makes no sense. I also doubt whether Trident renewal makes much sense. Exactly who are we deterring? We won't even be able to use it without seeking approval from America.

So yes okocha, get the rich to pay some tax and put the money into social care, education and the NHS. Now if we had an opposition ...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-39337909

Up 0.5% in just one month.

Is it the 1970's again?

Bread2.0 wrote:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-39337909

Up 0.5% in just one month.

Is it the 1970's again?

And only going to get worse.

And some Tory MPs have threatened the BBC's future if they are not enthusiastic enough about brexit.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-39335904

You're right, inflation never went up before Brexit

Natasha Whittam wrote:You're right, inflation never went up before Brexit

Not in recent years although I was kinda hoping for a decade or so of economic stability before the next market collapse.


The main point is that the Government got it wrong - substantially wrong. Hammond set a target of keeping inflationary rises to below 2% and used that to set his budget. We already know that the Tories have failed to deliver on all but one of their election promises (to have a referendum is the only one achieved) and now that inflation is rising more rapidly than the Tories expected their ability to stick to their budget will also be brought into question.

The thing is that most economists have been saying all along that Brexit will lead to high inflation, substantial price increases and salaries being frozen - in other words a reduction in the standard of living for working and middle class people. Whilst this short term blip in the inflationary increase rate can be as much ascribed to the lettuce crisis as Brexit, the economists are being proven right and we haven't even left the EU yet. Just keep an eye on the price of Twirls when we do finally leave.

There will be another collapse with or without Brexit, but the Tories are accelerating our headlong rush towards it and simultaneously dismantling the structures that have historically protected us from the worst of the effects.

The Tories are riding high by choosing to be seen to support populist culture which these days seems to have endorsed ignoring the "experts". Sure not everything mentioned in "Project Fear" has come true yet - it wouldn't have because we're still in the EU - but we are certainly heading in that direction and the much-derided "experts" are still very much on course for being right all along.

All the Tories ever say is that spending on Schools/NHS/social care etc is at "record levels" when what that actually means is serious cuts in real terms. Take education for example where despite the usual lie we are looking at cuts of 8% in real terms by 2020.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-39302746

Bread2.0 wrote:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-39337909

Up 0.5% in just one month.

Is it the 1970's again?

There are some people who won't be too worried though:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-39350059

Still far too early for an analysis of all things Brexit, but the Tories have an obligation to at least keep our economic growth on a par with the EU whilst we work towards getting out. As Eurozone growth nears a six year high with France and Germany especially booming at the moment will the Chancellor do anything to boost our competitiveness? 
In the scheme of things, their success is tempered by Greece's borrowing but even with that taken into consideration they're doing better than the Tories.

wanderlust wrote:Here's one senior Tory who I agree with - but sincerely hope he is wrong.

He's a doddering old fart, whose been out of touch with the public for many years, along with the other old duffer, Kenneth Clarke. The two of them have been living in their ivory towers for years, living high off the hog, and trying to play politics the 'old fashioned' way, i.e. behind closed doors, with friends.
He needs to realise that the world has not only changed, but its changing again, and will need a different type of politician. What help he thinks he can provide to his old supporters and cronies, I don't know.

If Brexit goes Tits up then the demise of this country will make this Tory government culpable, not only did Cameron offer a referendum purely to appease his back benchers (because he thought it was a win win) he risked the future of the country for party political gain, unforgivable.

IF Scotland breaks away and the UK breaks up, then the Tory government will forever be the party that broke up the union. 

We will then truly be little Englanders and all those who want to put the GREAT back in Britain wont have a Great Britain to make great, just a small inward looking little England with its closed borders and not much else. So unless May pulls it off we are fooked. What a bloody mess.

Doubly fucked if the Scots get independence because we will have a permanent Tory government even if Labour get rid of that useless gimp Corbyn.