Brexit negotiations

T.R.O.Y wrote:

boltonbonce wrote:Many in the shadow cabinet are third raters, due mainly to the fact that, when the membership took back control of the party, many of the old, experienced heads wet their pants, and flounced off to the back benches.

Don’t disagree with that, but I’m a fan of Thornberrry. She’s been forceful in her views on Saudi atrocities in yemen while Johnson then Hunt have pandered to them to keep the arms trade flowing.

I like her myself. Like most MP's, she has a gaff or two in her, but it goes with the territory.

She's pretty gutsy, and can certainly hold her own at PMQ's.

Wow, the complete opposite to how I see her. Fair enough.
When you're as old as me Bonce, you young whippersnapper, you might change your mind.

gloswhite wrote:Wow, the complete opposite to how I see her. Fair enough.
When you're as old as me Bonce, you young whippersnapper, you might change your mind.

We of the younger generation respect your views old timer.  

The trend these days is to call anyone with a differing opinion, a misguided idiot, or unpatriotic. We're seeing it across the pond now. The level of debate is abysmal.

Let me know when you're next going out for a meal. I'll come round and harass you.

gloswhite wrote:It's all gone even further down the drain this morning, with the PM back-pedaling from a 1 year extension, to 'just a few months', with the included costs of anything between 9 and 14 £billion.
I think its fair to say that we've hit a brick wall, and finally come to a halt, with regards to the negotiations, a wall that is about to fall down on her. What an awful mess. 
Even now the EU is sticking with its own demands, regardless of this impasse. I think we've lost so much face, that any future dealings with the EU will carry no weight or respect whatsoever, and the bureaucratic juggernaut will continue to roll on, to its own eventual demise.

I think the bigger news this morning is Raab apparently backtracking on the Parliamentary vote the Government had agreed to. Now he's saying that Parliament will have the choice of either supporting whatever deal is on the table in it's entirety or...nothing.

The absence of options reminds me of the referendum itself and Raab's attitude reminds me of how this whole nonsense has been railroaded through. Suspect Raab will be forced to backpedal on this one though.

gloswhite wrote:It's all gone even further down the drain this morning, with the PM back-pedaling from a 1 year extension, to 'just a few months', with the included costs of anything between 9 and 14 £billion.
I think its fair to say that we've hit a brick wall, and finally come to a halt, with regards to the negotiations, a wall that is about to fall down on her. What an awful mess. 
Even now the EU is sticking with its own demands, regardless of this impasse. I think we've lost so much face, that any future dealings with the EU will carry no weight or respect whatsoever, and the bureaucratic juggernaut will continue to roll on, to its own eventual demise.

Unfortunately this is what you and millions of others voted for. It was all entirely predictable although the brexit campaign never addressed the practicalities of actually leaving the EU or even what brexit meant.

xmiles wrote:

gloswhite wrote:It's all gone even further down the drain this morning, with the PM back-pedaling from a 1 year extension, to 'just a few months', with the included costs of anything between 9 and 14 £billion.
I think its fair to say that we've hit a brick wall, and finally come to a halt, with regards to the negotiations, a wall that is about to fall down on her. What an awful mess. 
Even now the EU is sticking with its own demands, regardless of this impasse. I think we've lost so much face, that any future dealings with the EU will carry no weight or respect whatsoever, and the bureaucratic juggernaut will continue to roll on, to its own eventual demise.

Unfortunately this is what you and millions of others voted for. It was all entirely predictable although the brexit campaign never addressed the practicalities of actually leaving the EU or even what brexit meant.

No, XM, this isn't what the majority of voters voted for, nor was it 'entirely predictable', in fact the remain voters were convinced they would win, and we didn't. Nobody could predict exactly how the situation would evolve, nor that all politicians would manage to work the country into a corner through their ineptitude, selfishness, and the inability to see what their actions would do to everyone in the UK.
Having said that, I think the original optimism of resolving the issues didn't take into account the EU's intransigence on many points, even to telling the UK to ignore their hard-earned NI treaty, in favour of trade with them.
The situation the UK is now in couldn't have been seen in detail, even if a crystal ball had been used.

In fairness, the NI question was on the table during the referendum and never answered. Leave didn’t win because they had the answers to the key questions, but rather with a set of aspirations (and no clear route to achieve them).

And this is why nobody can agree a clear direction for Brexit - it has too many different meanings and is impossible to implement in a way that keeps everyone happy. May is too concerned with holding on to power which leaves us rudderless.

gloswhite wrote:

xmiles wrote:

gloswhite wrote:It's all gone even further down the drain this morning, with the PM back-pedaling from a 1 year extension, to 'just a few months', with the included costs of anything between 9 and 14 £billion.
I think its fair to say that we've hit a brick wall, and finally come to a halt, with regards to the negotiations, a wall that is about to fall down on her. What an awful mess. 
Even now the EU is sticking with its own demands, regardless of this impasse. I think we've lost so much face, that any future dealings with the EU will carry no weight or respect whatsoever, and the bureaucratic juggernaut will continue to roll on, to its own eventual demise.

Unfortunately this is what you and millions of others voted for. It was all entirely predictable although the brexit campaign never addressed the practicalities of actually leaving the EU or even what brexit meant.

No, XM, this isn't what the majority of voters voted for, nor was it 'entirely predictable', in fact the remain voters were convinced they would win, and we didn't. Nobody could predict exactly how the situation would evolve, nor that all politicians would manage to work the country into a corner through their ineptitude, selfishness, and the inability to see what their actions would do to everyone in the UK.
Having said that, I think the original optimism of resolving the issues didn't take into account the EU's intransigence on many points, even to telling the UK to ignore their hard-earned NI treaty, in favour of trade with them.
The situation the UK is now in couldn't have been seen in detail, even if a crystal ball had been used.

But it was always predictable that leaving the EU would be difficult and the remain campaign did point this out. The leave campaign pretended that it would be easy but this was just another lie. The optimism you refer to was simply hot air and had no basis in fact. The only optimists were brexiteers like Farage, Johnson, Fox and Rees-Mogg - nobody else was at all optimistic.

xmiles wrote:

gloswhite wrote:

xmiles wrote:

gloswhite wrote:It's all gone even further down the drain this morning, with the PM back-pedaling from a 1 year extension, to 'just a few months', with the included costs of anything between 9 and 14 £billion.
I think its fair to say that we've hit a brick wall, and finally come to a halt, with regards to the negotiations, a wall that is about to fall down on her. What an awful mess. 
Even now the EU is sticking with its own demands, regardless of this impasse. I think we've lost so much face, that any future dealings with the EU will carry no weight or respect whatsoever, and the bureaucratic juggernaut will continue to roll on, to its own eventual demise.

Unfortunately this is what you and millions of others voted for. It was all entirely predictable although the brexit campaign never addressed the practicalities of actually leaving the EU or even what brexit meant.

No, XM, this isn't what the majority of voters voted for, nor was it 'entirely predictable', in fact the remain voters were convinced they would win, and we didn't. Nobody could predict exactly how the situation would evolve, nor that all politicians would manage to work the country into a corner through their ineptitude, selfishness, and the inability to see what their actions would do to everyone in the UK.
Having said that, I think the original optimism of resolving the issues didn't take into account the EU's intransigence on many points, even to telling the UK to ignore their hard-earned NI treaty, in favour of trade with them.
The situation the UK is now in couldn't have been seen in detail, even if a crystal ball had been used.

But it was always predictable that leaving the EU would be difficult and the remain campaign did point this out. The leave campaign pretended that it would be easy but this was just another lie. The optimism you refer to was simply hot air and had no basis in fact. The only optimists were brexiteers like Farage, Johnson, Fox and Rees-Mogg - nobody else was at all optimistic.

I think your on slightly thin ice here XM, when you talk about predictions. (Project Fear - 'nuff said). Neither side really knew what was in store, simply because it was a situation never before experienced. As you rightly say, there was a mixture of aspirations, hopes, and lies, but it was from both sides, something you seem to have a problem with.
The remainers have never accepted the result, even though it is democratic, but that is their prerogative. What I find frustrating is how they have fought every inch of the way, so weakening our case, and doing a lot of the damage on behalf of the EU, albeit unwittingly it seems. On the other side, we have a government fragmenting into its own tribal groups, and again, doing a lot of damage for the EU.
The end result is that were sitting in a corner, like a kicked dog, waiting for a chance to have one bite. This isn't right for a rich and powerful country like the UK, and its even worse when you consider that we've done it to ourselves.

Having read all the conflicting, overblown claims and counter-claims before the referendum, I walked to the polling station, left all the boxes blank and wrote on the ballot paper, "How the hell am I, or any of us, supposed to know what's best?"

Now feeling that abstention was justified, especially as I still don't know.... and nor does anyone else, as is clear from the depressing conflict amongst our politicians and in the rest of our wholly divided society.

Prior to the opinion poll aka partial referendum, we had a degree of certainty as regards the economy, employment, Northern Ireland, legislation, trade deals in place, a very strong pound, a lead role in the decision making process in Europe, commitment from the world's financial markets and major manufacturers to have bases in the UK and membership of a trade bloc that was strong enough to compete with the Americans and Chinese.

That was all in the bag.

Now we have uncertainty about all those things, so say what you like about "Project Fear" but it is indisputable that everything that we have worked for over the last 40 years and beyond is now in the balance and we have replaced confidence in our country's economy and future prospects with uncertainty - and have done so at considerable expense.

Simply running the partial referendum and the ongoing costs of the negotiations has already cost the UK more than the EU budget payments the Leavers were whingeing about. Parliament has been paralysed by Brexit leaving important legislation not dealt with and when we finally do leave, we'll then start picking up the enormous bills for e.g. rewriting the law - which unless they intend to further cut people's rights will simply be rewriting what is already in place as an EU member. Economically it's already a disaster.

wanderlust wrote:Prior to the opinion poll aka partial referendum, we had a degree of certainty as regards the economy, employment, Northern Ireland, legislation, trade deals in place, a very strong pound, a lead role in the decision making process in Europe, commitment from the world's financial markets and major manufacturers to have bases in the UK and membership of a trade bloc that was strong enough to compete with the Americans and Chinese.

That was all in the bag.

Now we have uncertainty about all those things, so say what you like about "Project Fear" but it is indisputable that everything that we have worked for over the last 40 years and beyond is now in the balance and we have replaced confidence in our country's economy and future prospects with uncertainty - and have done so at considerable expense.

Simply running the partial referendum and the ongoing costs of the negotiations has already cost the UK more than the EU budget payments the Leavers were whingeing about. Parliament has been paralysed by Brexit leaving important legislation not dealt with and when we finally do leave, we'll then start picking up the enormous bills for e.g. rewriting the law - which unless they intend to further cut people's rights will simply be rewriting what is already in place as an EU member. Economically it's already a disaster.

If there was a way to 'like' your post I would. Well said.

gloswhite wrote:

xmiles wrote:

gloswhite wrote:

xmiles wrote:

gloswhite wrote:It's all gone even further down the drain this morning, with the PM back-pedaling from a 1 year extension, to 'just a few months', with the included costs of anything between 9 and 14 £billion.
I think its fair to say that we've hit a brick wall, and finally come to a halt, with regards to the negotiations, a wall that is about to fall down on her. What an awful mess. 
Even now the EU is sticking with its own demands, regardless of this impasse. I think we've lost so much face, that any future dealings with the EU will carry no weight or respect whatsoever, and the bureaucratic juggernaut will continue to roll on, to its own eventual demise.

Unfortunately this is what you and millions of others voted for. It was all entirely predictable although the brexit campaign never addressed the practicalities of actually leaving the EU or even what brexit meant.

No, XM, this isn't what the majority of voters voted for, nor was it 'entirely predictable', in fact the remain voters were convinced they would win, and we didn't. Nobody could predict exactly how the situation would evolve, nor that all politicians would manage to work the country into a corner through their ineptitude, selfishness, and the inability to see what their actions would do to everyone in the UK.
Having said that, I think the original optimism of resolving the issues didn't take into account the EU's intransigence on many points, even to telling the UK to ignore their hard-earned NI treaty, in favour of trade with them.
The situation the UK is now in couldn't have been seen in detail, even if a crystal ball had been used.

But it was always predictable that leaving the EU would be difficult and the remain campaign did point this out. The leave campaign pretended that it would be easy but this was just another lie. The optimism you refer to was simply hot air and had no basis in fact. The only optimists were brexiteers like Farage, Johnson, Fox and Rees-Mogg - nobody else was at all optimistic.

I think your on slightly thin ice here XM, when you talk about predictions. (Project Fear - 'nuff said). Neither side really knew what was in store, simply because it was a situation never before experienced. As you rightly say, there was a mixture of aspirations, hopes, and lies, but it was from both sides, something you seem to have a problem with.
The remainers have never accepted the result, even though it is democratic, but that is their prerogative. What I find frustrating is how they have fought every inch of the way, so weakening our case, and doing a lot of the damage on behalf of the EU, albeit unwittingly it seems. On the other side, we have a government fragmenting into its own tribal groups, and again, doing a lot of damage for the EU.
The end result is that were sitting in a corner, like a kicked dog, waiting for a chance to have one bite. This isn't right for a rich and powerful country like the UK, and its even worse when you consider that we've done it to ourselves.

I think you are slightly misunderstanding the point I am trying to make which is that leaving the EU was always going to be difficult.
Only the brexiteers pretended otherwise. The remain campaign was badly run and yes many remainers are unhappy about the result of the referendum, but this has not made it more difficult to leave the EU. As most experts pointed out from day one leaving the EU is complicated and expensive.

wanderlust wrote:Prior to the opinion poll aka partial referendum, we had a degree of certainty as regards the economy, employment, Northern Ireland, legislation, trade deals in place, a very strong pound, a lead role in the decision making process in Europe, commitment from the world's financial markets and major manufacturers to have bases in the UK and membership of a trade bloc that was strong enough to compete with the Americans and Chinese.

That was all in the bag.

Now we have uncertainty about all those things, so say what you like about "Project Fear" but it is indisputable that everything that we have worked for over the last 40 years and beyond is now in the balance and we have replaced confidence in our country's economy and future prospects with uncertainty - and have done so at considerable expense.

Simply running the partial referendum and the ongoing costs of the negotiations has already cost the UK more than the EU budget payments the Leavers were whingeing about. Parliament has been paralysed by Brexit leaving important legislation not dealt with and when we finally do leave, we'll then start picking up the enormous bills for e.g. rewriting the law - which unless they intend to further cut people's rights will simply be rewriting what is already in place as an EU member. Economically it's already a disaster.

Very well put.

Dunkels King wrote:

wanderlust wrote:Prior to the opinion poll aka partial referendum, we had a degree of certainty as regards the economy, employment, Northern Ireland, legislation, trade deals in place, a very strong pound, a lead role in the decision making process in Europe, commitment from the world's financial markets and major manufacturers to have bases in the UK and membership of a trade bloc that was strong enough to compete with the Americans and Chinese.

That was all in the bag.

Now we have uncertainty about all those things, so say what you like about "Project Fear" but it is indisputable that everything that we have worked for over the last 40 years and beyond is now in the balance and we have replaced confidence in our country's economy and future prospects with uncertainty - and have done so at considerable expense.

Simply running the partial referendum and the ongoing costs of the negotiations has already cost the UK more than the EU budget payments the Leavers were whingeing about. Parliament has been paralysed by Brexit leaving important legislation not dealt with and when we finally do leave, we'll then start picking up the enormous bills for e.g. rewriting the law - which unless they intend to further cut people's rights will simply be rewriting what is already in place as an EU member. Economically it's already a disaster.

Very well 

Although I think your a bit too gloomy on some of your examples, (its not the end of the world by any means), I nevertheless think you've made some good points. However, they are all about money. What about the people, laws, security, and migration, its all up for change. 
Having said that, lets not go over all the old arguments, and just wait a few days to see what is next thrown at us 

Quite a contrast:

1. hundreds of thousands attend a rally seeking a referendum on the final Brexit deal and
2. anonymous pro-Brexit ads appear on Facebook https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-45926892

and yet 1 is alleged to be anti-democratic by brexiteers.

xmiles wrote:Quite a contrast:

1. hundreds of thousands attend a rally seeking a referendum on the final Brexit deal and
2. anonymous pro-Brexit ads appear on Facebook https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-45926892

and yet 1 is alleged to be anti-democratic by brexiteers.

Hundreds of thousands as opposed to 17 million, and if the vast majority of those hundreds of thousands were proven to be leavers in the first instance, then it might carry some weight, (with me at least).
Of course its not undemocratic to attend the rally, but overturning a democratic outcome could be construed by a few, as not being morally right, rather than undemocratic. Fortunately, we live in a country that allows all these freedoms, (granted well before we joined the EU I might add)

Jacob supports it:

I think this thread and the people "marching" today shows how fucked up this world is.

Everyone is creaming their knickers about Brexit as though it's going to wipe out the human race, but a recent report on global warming suggests the human race is under real threat in as little as 20 years, and no one gives a fuck.

There are people on this thread crying that Brexit is going to damage their kids and grandkids, when it's much more likely that their descendants are going to either drown when half the countries in the world are submerged under water, or be living (and starving) in caves to avoid the burning sun.

People need to wake up. Brexit might make you a little bit poorer, but money will mean nothing when the human race is wiped out.

Agreed, hence I stopped eating meat. What are you doing about it?