Brexit negotiations

Natasha Whittam wrote:

T.R.O.Y wrote:She’s just completely ballsed up the negotiations, Chequers was never going to be accepted - not even her own cabinet accepted it. She’s too weak to come up with a feasible solution as she’s more bothered about staying in power.

What a load of shite. She's there to get the best deal for the UK, if that takes time then so be it.

Weak she most definitely isn't. Perhaps she's finally learning a trick or two from my hero, Maggie T.

Dunkels King wrote:

luckyPeterpiper wrote:lusty, with respect on the ex-pats issue I believe you're plain wrong. Since by definition ex-pats do not live in the UK they aren't likely to be materially affected by Brexit and frankly shouldn't have a say in matters about a country in which they no longer reside.

Put it this way, my mother was Scottish and I was born in Glasgow but we moved to Manchester when I was two years old. As a result when there was a referendum concerning Scottish independence from the UK I, like many other Scots born people living elsewhere did NOT get a vote and frankly I believe that was right.

Now, as to people's opinion changing on Brexit. I think it should be noted that those who most strongly favoured leaving the EU were the over 60's, in other words the part of our population least likely to have to live with the consequences in the long term. In my humble opinion when you look at the demographics in terms of age the young and middle aged were solidly in favour of remain and frankly I think it's a travesty that both groups will now pay the price for their forebear's short sighted 'Little England' thinking.

Basically Farage and the rest of the Brexit crowd played on fear, ignorance and outright bigotry with lots of help from the Murdoch owned papers and websites. Unfortunately though, this is a democracy and whether we agree or not the majority of voters said Leave. Whether they still feel that was right or not is for the moment beside the point. Article 50 was invoked and whether or not we like it we're out of the EU next year.

Finally, as to the assertion we should have a vote or referendum on the final deal. This is a moot point since there won't be a deal. There is no way the other 27 members of the EU will unanimously ratify anything that appears to treat Britain well. We'll be out and using WTO rules only no matter how hard May and her colleagues try to make us believe otherwise.

Frankly this is going to be a disaster for the UK and our kids will pay for it for years. But sadly the truth is we brought it on ourselves not just with the referendum but with the way our media and our people have spoken about Europe and it's inhabitants for the last several decades.

Well, I am an ex-pat, but I am a British Citizen. So where do I stand ? In Germany I cannot vote in their Elections because I am a Foreigner. I am British so I can still vote in the English Elections. Why should I be allowed to do that, and also why should I have been allowed a vote in the Referendum I hear you say ? It's simple. I paid in to the UK all the time I worked there. I still pay NI contributions in to the UK even though I live and work in Germany. I moved here based on an agreement of free movement in Europe. With that in mind it meant I could go and work in any of the other 27 Countries if (like it did in the UK) the shit hits the fan. Now, because of a load of older people and a load of xenophobic, easily tricked people (by that I mean morons like the guy from Barnsley who was on TV and said he voted leave because of all the Pakistanis and Indians coming in to the Country) if I lose my job here I am now forced to either find something here or move back to the UK. I have lost the chance to find work in one of the other EU Countries. Oh, and that's not being selfish thinking that way, it's simply being mightily pissed off that my life could be impacted by a decision that I could have no say in. That's the point, us ex-pats are MORE affected by this than anyone who lives in the UK, because 99% of the people who voted leave, probably even 100% had no interest to work overseas anyway. They just fucked it up for everyone else, and whilst I am on a bit of a rant, 52/48 is not "the peoples will". It is pretty much half of the vote and in an Election would not be a majority that would give you power, so it's bullshit anyway, and Referendum by definition is an opinion gathering excercise.

Rant over

Dunkels King wrote:
Well, I am an ex-pat, but I am a British Citizen. So where do I stand ? In Germany I cannot vote in their Elections because I am a Foreigner. I am British so I can still vote in the English Elections. Why should I be allowed to do that, and also why should I have been allowed a vote in the Referendum I hear you say ? It's simple. I paid in to the UK all the time I worked there. I still pay NI contributions in to the UK even though I live and work in Germany. I moved here based on an agreement of free movement in Europe. With that in mind it meant I could go and work in any of the other 27 Countries if (like it did in the UK) the shit hits the fan. Now, because of a load of older people and a load of xenophobic, easily tricked people (by that I mean morons like the guy from Barnsley who was on TV and said he voted leave because of all the Pakistanis and Indians coming in to the Country) if I lose my job here I am now forced to either find something here or move back to the UK. I have lost the chance to find work in one of the other EU Countries. Oh, and that's not being selfish thinking that way, it's simply being mightily pissed off that my life could be impacted by a decision that I could have no say in. That's the point, us ex-pats are MORE affected by this than anyone who lives in the UK, because 99% of the people who voted leave, probably even 100% had no interest to work overseas anyway. They just fucked it up for everyone else, and whilst I am on a bit of a rant, 52/48 is not "the peoples will". It is pretty much half of the vote and in an Election would not be a majority that would give you power, so it's bullshit anyway, and Referendum by definition is an opinion gathering excercise.

Rant over

karlypants wrote:

Dunkels King wrote:
Well, I am an ex-pat, but I am a British Citizen. So where do I stand ? In Germany I cannot vote in their Elections because I am a Foreigner. I am British so I can still vote in the English Elections. Why should I be allowed to do that, and also why should I have been allowed a vote in the Referendum I hear you say ? It's simple. I paid in to the UK all the time I worked there. I still pay NI contributions in to the UK even though I live and work in Germany. I moved here based on an agreement of free movement in Europe. With that in mind it meant I could go and work in any of the other 27 Countries if (like it did in the UK) the shit hits the fan. Now, because of a load of older people and a load of xenophobic, easily tricked people (by that I mean morons like the guy from Barnsley who was on TV and said he voted leave because of all the Pakistanis and Indians coming in to the Country) if I lose my job here I am now forced to either find something here or move back to the UK. I have lost the chance to find work in one of the other EU Countries. Oh, and that's not being selfish thinking that way, it's simply being mightily pissed off that my life could be impacted by a decision that I could have no say in. That's the point, us ex-pats are MORE affected by this than anyone who lives in the UK, because 99% of the people who voted leave, probably even 100% had no interest to work overseas anyway. They just fucked it up for everyone else, and whilst I am on a bit of a rant, 52/48 is not "the peoples will". It is pretty much half of the vote and in an Election would not be a majority that would give you power, so it's bullshit anyway, and Referendum by definition is an opinion gathering excercise.

Rant over

Because you don't pay any bloody tax here so why should you be entitled to have a vote? You don't live here anymore so your interests should lie in Germany then. It is up to them if they allow you to vote or not there.

You pay the NI contributions to safe guard your state pension.

It does not matter if you paid tax and NI up until you left the UK to work in another country.

There's so many things wrong with this post it's unbelievable!

karlypants wrote:

Dunkels King wrote:
Well, I am an ex-pat, but I am a British Citizen. So where do I stand ? In Germany I cannot vote in their Elections because I am a Foreigner. I am British so I can still vote in the English Elections. Why should I be allowed to do that, and also why should I have been allowed a vote in the Referendum I hear you say ? It's simple. I paid in to the UK all the time I worked there. I still pay NI contributions in to the UK even though I live and work in Germany. I moved here based on an agreement of free movement in Europe. With that in mind it meant I could go and work in any of the other 27 Countries if (like it did in the UK) the shit hits the fan. Now, because of a load of older people and a load of xenophobic, easily tricked people (by that I mean morons like the guy from Barnsley who was on TV and said he voted leave because of all the Pakistanis and Indians coming in to the Country) if I lose my job here I am now forced to either find something here or move back to the UK. I have lost the chance to find work in one of the other EU Countries. Oh, and that's not being selfish thinking that way, it's simply being mightily pissed off that my life could be impacted by a decision that I could have no say in. That's the point, us ex-pats are MORE affected by this than anyone who lives in the UK, because 99% of the people who voted leave, probably even 100% had no interest to work overseas anyway. They just fucked it up for everyone else, and whilst I am on a bit of a rant, 52/48 is not "the peoples will". It is pretty much half of the vote and in an Election would not be a majority that would give you power, so it's bullshit anyway, and Referendum by definition is an opinion gathering excercise.

Rant over

Because you don't pay any bloody tax here so why should you be entitled to have a vote? You don't live here anymore so your interests should lie in Germany then. It is up to them if they allow you to vote or not there.

You pay the NI contributions to safe guard your state pension.

It does not matter if you paid tax and NI up until you left the UK to work in another country.

There's so many things wrong with this post it's unbelievable!

xmiles wrote:

karlypants wrote:

Dunkels King wrote:
Well, I am an ex-pat, but I am a British Citizen. So where do I stand ? In Germany I cannot vote in their Elections because I am a Foreigner. I am British so I can still vote in the English Elections. Why should I be allowed to do that, and also why should I have been allowed a vote in the Referendum I hear you say ? It's simple. I paid in to the UK all the time I worked there. I still pay NI contributions in to the UK even though I live and work in Germany. I moved here based on an agreement of free movement in Europe. With that in mind it meant I could go and work in any of the other 27 Countries if (like it did in the UK) the shit hits the fan. Now, because of a load of older people and a load of xenophobic, easily tricked people (by that I mean morons like the guy from Barnsley who was on TV and said he voted leave because of all the Pakistanis and Indians coming in to the Country) if I lose my job here I am now forced to either find something here or move back to the UK. I have lost the chance to find work in one of the other EU Countries. Oh, and that's not being selfish thinking that way, it's simply being mightily pissed off that my life could be impacted by a decision that I could have no say in. That's the point, us ex-pats are MORE affected by this than anyone who lives in the UK, because 99% of the people who voted leave, probably even 100% had no interest to work overseas anyway. They just fucked it up for everyone else, and whilst I am on a bit of a rant, 52/48 is not "the peoples will". It is pretty much half of the vote and in an Election would not be a majority that would give you power, so it's bullshit anyway, and Referendum by definition is an opinion gathering excercise.

Rant over

Because you don't pay any bloody tax here so why should you be entitled to have a vote? You don't live here anymore so your interests should lie in Germany then. It is up to them if they allow you to vote or not there.

You pay the NI contributions to safe guard your state pension.

It does not matter if you paid tax and NI up until you left the UK to work in another country.

There's so many things wrong with this post it's unbelievable!

So karly you think expats should not have a vote in British elections and referendums?

Dunkels King wrote:I forgot to mention, half the people who voted Brexit probably "don't pay any bloody tax" either, and they are a burden on the UK whereas I am no burden at all. But I will be if I come back and just start scrounging benefits (something I have never done in 36 years of working) like a lot of free loaders that just blaim everything on the Smelly Eastern European Forriners (innit).

Natasha Whittam wrote:

Dunkels King wrote:I forgot to mention, half the people who voted Brexit probably "don't pay any bloody tax" either, and they are a burden on the UK whereas I am no burden at all. But I will be if I come back and just start scrounging benefits (something I have never done in 36 years of working) like a lot of free loaders that just blaim everything on the Smelly Eastern European Forriners (innit).

You've really let yourself down there DK, shameful post.

luckyPeterpiper wrote:Dunkels my feeling on the ex-pat issue is this. You chose to live and work outside the UK and I suspect will continue to do so after Brexit. Plus of course there are many ex-pats who retire to Spain or France or some other warmer climate. I don't begrudge anyone the right to do what they feel they need to in order to benefit themselves and their families. On the contrary I think it must have been a difficult decision to go to a foreign country and stay there.

But on the subject of Brexit I felt and still feel that only UK residents should have voted. Just as I was denied a vote in the Scottish referendum because I live and work in England despite having been born in Glasgow.

As to the other posters on here assuming that everyone wants a no-deal exit I would say they're so far off the mark it's laughable. I am and remain (pun intended) a committed supporter of our membership in the EU. I accept we're leaving but I'm absolutely certain it will be a disaster for this country. Those like Nat who seem to think it means we'll suddenly become some sort of superpower in our own right or that we'll somehow become 'free' are at best deluding themselves and at worst they're complete idiots.

A no-deal exit is a certainty for reasons I've already stated several times and if anyone thinks that will be good for Britain I would say you need professional help.

Dunkels King wrote:One last thing reference who should have been allowed a vote. In total 6 million people directly affected couldn't vote. That's 3 million ex-pats and 3 million EU Citizens already working in the UK, and we/they are directly affected, unlike many millions who this will have absolutely no effect on whatsoever, who got to vote on the futures of people like me.

Sluffy wrote:

Dunkels King wrote:One last thing reference who should have been allowed a vote. In total 6 million people directly affected couldn't vote. That's 3 million ex-pats and 3 million EU Citizens already working in the UK, and we/they are directly affected, unlike many millions who this will have absolutely no effect on whatsoever, who got to vote on the futures of people like me.

To be fair the vast majority who voted (for Brexit or Remain) will still be living here for years to come and have to face the good or the bad of whatever is to come - so it is completely wrong to say it won't impact on their futures.

Of course it will - and if you choose to continue to live outside the country then it will obviously effect them (us) more than it ever will you, or other ex-pats - particularly if you continue the joys of being in the EU and us in the UK don't.

Dunkels King wrote:

Sluffy wrote:

Dunkels King wrote:One last thing reference who should have been allowed a vote. In total 6 million people directly affected couldn't vote. That's 3 million ex-pats and 3 million EU Citizens already working in the UK, and we/they are directly affected, unlike many millions who this will have absolutely no effect on whatsoever, who got to vote on the futures of people like me.

To be fair the vast majority who voted (for Brexit or Remain) will still be living here for years to come and have to face the good or the bad of whatever is to come - so it is completely wrong to say it won't impact on their futures.

Of course it will - and if you choose to continue to live outside the country then it will obviously effect them (us) more than it ever will you, or other ex-pats - particularly if you continue the joys of being in the EU and us in the UK don't.

What joys of being in the EU ? Being able to stay in Germany forever or go back to the UK, because going to the other Countries to live or work will be out of the window. The impact I talk about is the freedom of movement around Europe that was guaranteed as part of being in the UK. Many ex-pats I work with and know socially based coming over here on that right to move around and go where the work is. I think you don't understand that British Citizens currently living in the EU (not the UK) have not been given a single assurance about what will happen regarding being allowed to stay in the Country they are in if they get made redundant, or if they can still continue to move around Europe. Nothing. Now that is what is shameful, because we are here knowing nothing. Imagine being in a situation were you have no idea if you will be entitled to support in the Country you have lived in for years and years if you lose your job because the goal posts got moved without you being permitted to have a say.

gloswhite wrote:DK, so you not only decided to move to Germany, but have also planned to retire to Spain, and you still believe you should have a say in the future of the UK ? 

Not only that, but you criticize the older generation for all sorts of things. Since when has ageism been acceptable? My understanding is that it isn't, any more, (not forgetting that the older generation have already paid for what is currently available to them/us, and to which you are already laying claim to, i.e. pension).
If you had to move to Germany, all it shows is your career choices in the past, were not always as good as you thought.
You'll have a good life in Germany, much better than many many people in Britain, and its your choice, so stop whingeing, and get on with it.

Sluffy wrote:

Dunkels King wrote:

Sluffy wrote:

Dunkels King wrote:One last thing reference who should have been allowed a vote. In total 6 million people directly affected couldn't vote. That's 3 million ex-pats and 3 million EU Citizens already working in the UK, and we/they are directly affected, unlike many millions who this will have absolutely no effect on whatsoever, who got to vote on the futures of people like me.

To be fair the vast majority who voted (for Brexit or Remain) will still be living here for years to come and have to face the good or the bad of whatever is to come - so it is completely wrong to say it won't impact on their futures.

Of course it will - and if you choose to continue to live outside the country then it will obviously effect them (us) more than it ever will you, or other ex-pats - particularly if you continue the joys of being in the EU and us in the UK don't.

What joys of being in the EU ? Being able to stay in Germany forever or go back to the UK, because going to the other Countries to live or work will be out of the window. The impact I talk about is the freedom of movement around Europe that was guaranteed as part of being in the UK. Many ex-pats I work with and know socially based coming over here on that right to move around and go where the work is. I think you don't understand that British Citizens currently living in the EU (not the UK) have not been given a single assurance about what will happen regarding being allowed to stay in the Country they are in if they get made redundant, or if they can still continue to move around Europe. Nothing. Now that is what is shameful, because we are here knowing nothing. Imagine being in a situation were you have no idea if you will be entitled to support in the Country you have lived in for years and years if you lose your job because the goal posts got moved without you being permitted to have a say.

Two things.

People lived and worked abroad long before we ever joined the EU and they managed to go about it ok - what about non EU citizens that live and work in the EU now - they manage ok also.

Isn't the EU guaranteeing the same rights you enjoy now after Brexit as the UK is guaranteeing EU citizens who live and work here now, after Brexit?  I thought they were, maybe I'm wrong?

gloswhite wrote:DK. Fair comments, about your career. Being ex Army, and having a specialist trade, I think I know where you're coming from. My own options were even more limited.
Just because were old farts, doesn't mean we can say what we like about age, colour, etc 
Truths about Brexit were hard to come by from either side, also you ask about ex-pats, but seem to forget that everyone will suffer in some form or other, and from times when I lived abroad, the further from the UK I and my family were, the more we were sheltered from the more severe effects.
I do see your concerns, genuinely, but bear in mind that we will be subject to many other influences that you will not, e.g. price increases, etc.

Natasha Whittam wrote:I think DK's had an internet breakdown. I hope he's ok.

By the way, did anyone see Nigel Farage in Bolton today? Apparently it was a sellout, not something you normally associate with Bolton.

I bet xmiles got his autograph.