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Brexit negotiations

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361Brexit negotiations - Page 13 Empty Re: Brexit negotiations on Wed Dec 12 2018, 09:40

wanderlust


Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
Despite her personal unpopularity and failure to negotiate a palatable deal I have a feeling May will survive for now, because her tactics will be the same ones she has been using since the whole Brexit fiasco started i.e. she will use the threat of a leadership election further delaying Brexit to bring a majority of Tories in line. It's called blackmail.
The other issue is there doesn't seem to be any credible alternative to May in the Tory ranks. 

Now if Labour dumped Corbyn and replaced him with Sir Keir Starmer that would be interesting.

362Brexit negotiations - Page 13 Empty Re: Brexit negotiations on Wed Dec 12 2018, 12:53

wanderlust


Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
Haha! May has done exactly as above....

In a statement in Downing Street, Mrs May said: "I will contest that vote with everything I have got."
She said a new prime minister would have to scrap or extend Article 50, the mechanism taking Britain out of the EU on 29 March, "delaying or even stopping Brexit".
Project Blackmail continues apace and should be enough for May to win the vote tonight. However that's exactly what Thatcher did before we finally got rid of the evil witch.

363Brexit negotiations - Page 13 Empty Re: Brexit negotiations on Wed Dec 12 2018, 13:58

okocha

okocha
Tony Kelly
Tony Kelly
£39 billion is just 1% of the government's spending power......

364Brexit negotiations - Page 13 Empty Re: Brexit negotiations on Wed Dec 12 2018, 16:37

Hipster_Nebula

Hipster_Nebula
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
She will win the vote. 

Less than 50 will vote against.

365Brexit negotiations - Page 13 Empty Re: Brexit negotiations on Wed Dec 12 2018, 16:45

boltonbonce

boltonbonce
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
I'm not sure I can take all this excitement.

366Brexit negotiations - Page 13 Empty Re: Brexit negotiations on Wed Dec 12 2018, 17:09

Cajunboy

Cajunboy
Andy Walker
Andy Walker
@Hipster_Nebula wrote:She will win the vote. 

Less than 50 will vote against.
More than 60 will vote against.

367Brexit negotiations - Page 13 Empty Re: Brexit negotiations on Thu Dec 13 2018, 07:49

wanderlust


Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
Wow! 117 - well over the 33% stink threshhold despite the threats AND May agreeing to step down albeit not immediately.

Well at least she's gone - we just have to see how much more damage she can do before she checks out of number 10 - on which note she is immune from another leadership challenge for a year which will presumably spare us the having to watch Boris making a dick of himself again for a while. Interesting times but sadly tinged by a Government who have turned this country into the laughing stock of the world.

With the Government in deadlock it's increasingly looking like People's Vote time cos if the politicians can't agree, who else can sort it out if not the people? - only better informed this time and hopefully with all registered voters included.

368Brexit negotiations - Page 13 Empty Re: Brexit negotiations on Thu Dec 13 2018, 22:23

xmiles

xmiles
Youri Djorkaeff
Youri Djorkaeff
@Hipster_Nebula wrote:She will win the vote. 

Less than 50 will vote against.

117 actually, 37% of Tory MPs, and she was so desperate to win that she gave the vote to two MPs who had been suspended.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-46544328

369Brexit negotiations - Page 13 Empty Re: Brexit negotiations on Fri Dec 14 2018, 09:22

wanderlust


Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
Unsurprisingly, EU leaders tell May to fuck off and stick to the deal she agreed. here

So what's next? 

Nothing to sweeten the DUP with and no reason why the vote on the deal can not now go ahead - although it wouldn't be surprising if she tried to wriggle out of this one too. It's just that this time, without the confidence of the House, she won't get away with any more lies and deceipt.

Dead woman walking.

370Brexit negotiations - Page 13 Empty Re: Brexit negotiations on Fri Dec 14 2018, 09:43

wanderlust


Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
Everything comes back to the referendum and the failure to define what people were voting for. That stupid phrase "Brexit means Brexit" has papered over the truth of the matter which is that Brexiteers all voted for a different thing and now they are faced with a deal they can't agree on.

In fact they've never agreed and would have realised this if the referendum had been meaningful and sensible.

Now the "hard Brexiteers" wan't no deal, the "soft Brexiteers" want to accept the deal and the rest of the country doesn't want to leave at all.

This is what happens when you try to address a complex issue with a Yes or No answer - especially when the voting public didn't understand how complex the issue was in the first place.

371Brexit negotiations - Page 13 Empty Re: Brexit negotiations on Fri Dec 14 2018, 13:39

Cajunboy

Cajunboy
Andy Walker
Andy Walker
Why do remainers insist on calling a second referendum a People's Vote?

372Brexit negotiations - Page 13 Empty Re: Brexit negotiations on Fri Dec 14 2018, 13:55

rammywhite

rammywhite
Frank Worthington
Frank Worthington
A second referendum about what? Is it to accept or reject the deal on offer which 98%  of the population haven't a clue what it means.
Or is it because the deal is so bad that we go back to the leave/remain offer and start all over again. There's a feeling afoot that this time the vote will be remain. But the risk of it being the same as last time (i.e leave) is too horrendous to contemplate with us being kicked out on March 29th.
And  the way that the 'Europeans ' are treating us at the moment makes 'remainers' like me last time feel like voting leave next time because I'd rather be out of their bureaucratic and selfish organisation. They could make this easier for May- but their bloody-mindedness at punishing us is becoming intolerable. I might well vote leave next time,if there is a next time..

373Brexit negotiations - Page 13 Empty Re: Brexit negotiations on Fri Dec 14 2018, 14:01

wanderlust


Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
@Cajunboy wrote:Why do remainers insist on calling a second referendum a People's Vote?
Why do eurosceptics insist on calling the partial opinion poll a referendum when millions of registered voters were systematically denied the opportunity to vote?

374Brexit negotiations - Page 13 Empty Re: Brexit negotiations on Fri Dec 14 2018, 14:05

wanderlust


Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
@rammywhite wrote:A second referendum about what? Is it to accept or reject the deal on offer which 98%  of the population haven't a clue what it means.
Or is it because the deal is so bad that we go back to the leave/remain offer and start all over again. There's a feeling afoot that this time the vote will be remain. But the risk of it being the same as last tine (i.e leave) is too horrendous to contemplate with us being kicked out on March 29th.
And  the way that the 'Europeans ' are treating us at the moment makes 'remainers' like me last time feel like voting leave next time because I'd rather be out of their bureaucratic and selfish organisation. They could make this easier for May- but their bloody-mindedness at punishing us is becoming intolerable. I might well vote leave next time,if there is a next time..
Why do you think the Europeans are treating us badly? They negotiated in good faith to protect their interests - as we allegedly did - and a deal was agreed.

Surely it's our Government that are trying to move the goalposts and not the EU?

Is it the EU's fault that the eurosceptics fed the public a load of lies about the EU and then promised them a load of stuff that it was never going to be possible to deliver?

375Brexit negotiations - Page 13 Empty Re: Brexit negotiations on Fri Dec 14 2018, 14:07

Natasha Whittam

Natasha Whittam
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
@rammywhite wrote:There's a feeling afoot that this time the vote will be remain.

The polls suggest the result would be the same, only with a larger majority.

376Brexit negotiations - Page 13 Empty Re: Brexit negotiations on Fri Dec 14 2018, 14:17

rammywhite

rammywhite
Frank Worthington
Frank Worthington
@wanderlust wrote:
@rammywhite wrote:A second referendum about what? Is it to accept or reject the deal on offer which 98%  of the population haven't a clue what it means.
Or is it because the deal is so bad that we go back to the leave/remain offer and start all over again. There's a feeling afoot that this time the vote will be remain. But the risk of it being the same as last tine (i.e leave) is too horrendous to contemplate with us being kicked out on March 29th.
And  the way that the 'Europeans ' are treating us at the moment makes 'remainers' like me last time feel like voting leave next time because I'd rather be out of their bureaucratic and selfish organisation. They could make this easier for May- but their bloody-mindedness at punishing us is becoming intolerable. I might well vote leave next time,if there is a next time..
Why do you think the Europeans are treating us badly? They negotiated in good faith to protect their interests - as we allegedly did - and a deal was agreed.

Surely it's our Government that are trying to move the goalposts and not the EU?

Is it the EU's fault that the eurosceptics fed the public a load of lies about the EU and then promised them a load of stuff that it was never going to be possible to deliver?

As you well know Lusty they are hellbent on protecting the political project thus the huge support for Greece when it collapsed and the same for Ireland in 2008. That's why they have admitted the basically broke and parasitic East European states as a buffer against Russian expansion. It has little to do with economics and everything to do with politics. Give us an easy deal and then  some of the peripheral states (eg Portugal, Greece) will want to walk away- but you don't need me to tell you all of this as you know it already.
Give Teresa May a time limit on the Irish backstop and the deal will stand a reasonable chance of getting through parliament, But as its not time limited then it doesn't stand a chance.
The Carson plebiscite has cast a long shadow!! (google it!!)
It would be simple enough for the other 27 states to agree a time limit- but they won't.
So they are faced with the chaos of a no deal exit which will damage the UK AND the other states particularly Ireland which will really begin to suffer as so many of their imports come through the UK and thus may be subject to tariffs.
There's no winners in any of this. Give just an inch and they'll gain a mile

377Brexit negotiations - Page 13 Empty Re: Brexit negotiations on Fri Dec 14 2018, 15:27

xmiles

xmiles
Youri Djorkaeff
Youri Djorkaeff
@Natasha Whittam wrote:
@rammywhite wrote:There's a feeling afoot that this time the vote will be remain.

The polls suggest the result would be the same, only with a larger majority.

I thought you didn't believe in polls.

378Brexit negotiations - Page 13 Empty Re: Brexit negotiations on Fri Dec 14 2018, 15:31

xmiles

xmiles
Youri Djorkaeff
Youri Djorkaeff
@rammywhite wrote:
@wanderlust wrote:
@rammywhite wrote:A second referendum about what? Is it to accept or reject the deal on offer which 98%  of the population haven't a clue what it means.
Or is it because the deal is so bad that we go back to the leave/remain offer and start all over again. There's a feeling afoot that this time the vote will be remain. But the risk of it being the same as last tine (i.e leave) is too horrendous to contemplate with us being kicked out on March 29th.
And  the way that the 'Europeans ' are treating us at the moment makes 'remainers' like me last time feel like voting leave next time because I'd rather be out of their bureaucratic and selfish organisation. They could make this easier for May- but their bloody-mindedness at punishing us is becoming intolerable. I might well vote leave next time,if there is a next time..
Why do you think the Europeans are treating us badly? They negotiated in good faith to protect their interests - as we allegedly did - and a deal was agreed.

Surely it's our Government that are trying to move the goalposts and not the EU?

Is it the EU's fault that the eurosceptics fed the public a load of lies about the EU and then promised them a load of stuff that it was never going to be possible to deliver?

As you well know Lusty they are hellbent on protecting the political project thus the huge support for Greece when it collapsed and the same for Ireland in 2008. That's why they have admitted the basically broke and parasitic East European states as a buffer against Russian expansion. It has little to do with economics and everything to do with politics. Give us an easy deal and then  some of the peripheral states (eg Portugal, Greece) will want to walk away- but you don't need me to tell you all of this as you know it already.
Give Teresa May a time limit on the Irish backstop and the deal will stand a reasonable chance of getting through parliament, But as its not time limited then it doesn't stand a chance.
The Carson plebiscite has cast a long shadow!! (google it!!)
It would be simple enough for the other 27 states to agree a time limit- but they won't.
So they are faced with the chaos of a no deal exit which will damage the UK AND the other states particularly Ireland which will really begin to suffer as so many of their imports come through the UK and thus may be subject to tariffs.
There's no winners in any of this. Give just an inch and they'll gain a mile

If you put a time limit on the backstop it won't be a backstop! That is why the EU are completely clear and consistent in saying they won't budge on this. Just because May is an absolutely hopeless negotiator you can hardly blame the EU for this.

379Brexit negotiations - Page 13 Empty Re: Brexit negotiations on Fri Dec 14 2018, 15:43

wanderlust


Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
@xmiles wrote:
@rammywhite wrote:
@wanderlust wrote:
@rammywhite wrote:A second referendum about what? Is it to accept or reject the deal on offer which 98%  of the population haven't a clue what it means.
Or is it because the deal is so bad that we go back to the leave/remain offer and start all over again. There's a feeling afoot that this time the vote will be remain. But the risk of it being the same as last tine (i.e leave) is too horrendous to contemplate with us being kicked out on March 29th.
And  the way that the 'Europeans ' are treating us at the moment makes 'remainers' like me last time feel like voting leave next time because I'd rather be out of their bureaucratic and selfish organisation. They could make this easier for May- but their bloody-mindedness at punishing us is becoming intolerable. I might well vote leave next time,if there is a next time..
Why do you think the Europeans are treating us badly? They negotiated in good faith to protect their interests - as we allegedly did - and a deal was agreed.

Surely it's our Government that are trying to move the goalposts and not the EU?

Is it the EU's fault that the eurosceptics fed the public a load of lies about the EU and then promised them a load of stuff that it was never going to be possible to deliver?

As you well know Lusty they are hellbent on protecting the political project thus the huge support for Greece when it collapsed and the same for Ireland in 2008. That's why they have admitted the basically broke and parasitic East European states as a buffer against Russian expansion. It has little to do with economics and everything to do with politics. Give us an easy deal and then  some of the peripheral states (eg Portugal, Greece) will want to walk away- but you don't need me to tell you all of this as you know it already.
Give Teresa May a time limit on the Irish backstop and the deal will stand a reasonable chance of getting through parliament, But as its not time limited then it doesn't stand a chance.
The Carson plebiscite has cast a long shadow!! (google it!!)
It would be simple enough for the other 27 states to agree a time limit- but they won't.
So they are faced with the chaos of a no deal exit which will damage the UK AND the other states particularly Ireland which will really begin to suffer as so many of their imports come through the UK and thus may be subject to tariffs.
There's no winners in any of this. Give just an inch and they'll gain a mile

If you put a time limit on the backstop it won't be a backstop! That is why the EU are completely clear and consistent in saying they won't budge on this. Just because May is an absolutely hopeless negotiator you can hardly blame the EU for this.
I don't question that the EU is a political bloc designed to protect and expand western ideals, but it is also an economic bloc of sufficient strength to compete with the Americans and Chinese. It has many faults but I firmly believe Britain's interests are best served by being a major player in it rather than a small island trying to compete with it.
This world has changed whether we like it or not.

380Brexit negotiations - Page 13 Empty Re: Brexit negotiations on Fri Dec 14 2018, 15:46

Natasha Whittam

Natasha Whittam
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
@xmiles wrote:I thought you didn't believe in polls.

I was just making a statement.

381Brexit negotiations - Page 13 Empty Re: Brexit negotiations on Fri Dec 14 2018, 16:00

xmiles

xmiles
Youri Djorkaeff
Youri Djorkaeff
Some alternative careers for May (Extracted from The Daily Mash):

Automated rail announcer
May’s robotic speaking style is perfect for tedious announcements like “The 14.32 to Wigan is now ready to depart”. She’s also so boring she’d probably get really into it.

Cold caller
Two key aspects of cold-calling sales jobs are repeating the same script endlessly and people wishing you’d fuck off.

Dickens character
It’s worryingly easy to imagine May as the cruel governess of a home for orphans. Possibly called ‘Miss Jabgrind’, she would have entitled little shits like Oliver Twist deported.

382Brexit negotiations - Page 13 Empty Re: Brexit negotiations on Tue Dec 18 2018, 15:58

wanderlust


Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
Just wondering how it's going to pan out for Theresa May? She's already forfeited the Tory leadership in the next election and is sticking to her guns about forcing through the idea that the only choice is her deal or no deal. Having chickened out of putting her deal to the Parliamentary vote she's now delaying to try to run down the clock to ramp up the pressure on Parliament and as precious time slips away, the more likely they are to accept any old shite even if nobody voted for it.
Starting to look like the only choice will be no deal. In fact she'll do anything to avoid asking the people what we think now that we know the deal she agreed isn't acceptable to anyone.

383Brexit negotiations - Page 13 Empty Re: Brexit negotiations on Tue Dec 18 2018, 17:20

xmiles

xmiles
Youri Djorkaeff
Youri Djorkaeff
No doubt a no deal will suit some of the posters here despite even May admitting it will be a disaster.

384Brexit negotiations - Page 13 Empty Re: Brexit negotiations on Wed Dec 19 2018, 09:03

wanderlust


Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
BUSINESSES WATCH ON IN HORROR


In a joint statement, the British Chambers of Commerce, the Confederation of British Industry, manufacturers' organisation the EEF, the Federation of Small Businesses and the Institute of Directors said: "Businesses have been watching in horror as politicians have focused on factional disputes rather than practical steps that business needs to move forward.
The lack of progress in Westminster means that the risk of a no-deal Brexit is rising.


The cabinet met on Tuesday to ramp up preparations for a no-deal departure - but the groups say the idea that "no-deal" can be managed is not credible.


The business groups said that instead of investing money and boosting productivity, companies were now having to divert capital for no-deal contingency planning. They also warned: "There are also hundreds of thousands who have yet to start - and cannot be expected to be ready in such a short space of time." Some companies told BBC News that they had already taken steps to invest in EU countries because of the uncertainty. 

Sports clothing exporter FreestyleXtreme has opened an office in Romania and is planning to open a warehouse in Germany. Managing director Shaun Loughlin said businesses needed to know there would be a deal "tomorrow", not in March. "This is the last chance, there is not going to be another chance. Once we move, we've moved, we won't be coming back," he said.

A vote by MPs on the deal had been scheduled for 11 December, but Mrs May postponed it until January after it was clear her deal would be rejected, leading to widespread anger in the Commons



Source

385Brexit negotiations - Page 13 Empty Re: Brexit negotiations on Wed Dec 19 2018, 09:14

xmiles

xmiles
Youri Djorkaeff
Youri Djorkaeff
@Cajunboy wrote:Why do remainers insist on calling a second referendum a People's Vote?

Why do brexiteers say giving people a vote "would threaten the very fabric of our democracy"?

386Brexit negotiations - Page 13 Empty Re: Brexit negotiations on Wed Dec 19 2018, 10:58

Hipster_Nebula

Hipster_Nebula
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
Because the result of the first vote will have been ignored?

Quite simple really.

If you did that in a general election I take it you'd be fine with it?

387Brexit negotiations - Page 13 Empty Re: Brexit negotiations on Wed Dec 19 2018, 11:01

Natasha Whittam

Natasha Whittam
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
@xmiles wrote:Why do brexiteers say giving people a vote "would threaten the very fabric of our democracy"?

Because it would.

We had a vote, the leave campaign won. It really is that simple. You can't keep having referendums until you get the result you want.

If the country had voted to remain in the EU you'd have laughed at any attempt to have another vote.

388Brexit negotiations - Page 13 Empty Re: Brexit negotiations on Wed Dec 19 2018, 11:19

xmiles

xmiles
Youri Djorkaeff
Youri Djorkaeff
If brexit is such a great thing surely people will vote for it again if there is a second referendum. However brexiteers are scared to hold a second vote because they are worried people might just understand exactly what is on offer.

And as for "You can't keep having referendums until you get the result you want" that was the entire basis of the brexit campaign. We had already had a vote to join the EU.

And of course Farage never accepted that a 52/48 win for remain would prevent calls for another referendum. He famously said "In a 52-48 referendum this would be unfinished business by a long way. If the Remain campaign win two-thirds to one-third that ends it." Double standards clearly apply for brexit fans.

389Brexit negotiations - Page 13 Empty Re: Brexit negotiations on Wed Dec 19 2018, 11:21

karlypants

karlypants
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
Sleep  Sleep  Sleep  Sleep  Sleep  Sleep  Sleep  Sleep  Sleep  Sleep  Sleep  Sleep  Sleep  Sleep  Sleep  Sleep  Sleep  Sleep  Sleep  Sleep  Sleep  Sleep  

390Brexit negotiations - Page 13 Empty Re: Brexit negotiations on Wed Dec 19 2018, 11:35

Dunkels King

Dunkels King
Nicolas Anelka
Nicolas Anelka
@Hipster_Nebula wrote:Because the result of the first vote will have been ignored?

Quite simple really.

If you did that in a general election I take it you'd be fine with it?

In a General Election a 52/48 split would not count as a majority. In a General Election the ex-pats denied a vote in the referendum would have got to vote. Fuck "democracy". It's a joke. People voted for something that was an imposibility to start with, but Farage and Johnson papered over that fact by spinning lie after lie.

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