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How is the Tory government doing?

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601How is the Tory government doing? - Page 21 Empty Re: How is the Tory government doing? on Thu Jul 23 2020, 18:34

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin
@T.R.O.Y. wrote:My surprise was that you’ve described yourself down to a tee in what you’re accusing Lust of. Nothing to do with your dyslexia

Well that's your opinion of me and you are entitled to it.

Doesn't mean that it is the right one though and I gave as an example my willing acceptance to show I can be and am wrong at times.

If I didn't have dyslexia I would have known I had spelt it incorrectly and would never have submitted it as an answer knowing it to be wrong would I?

If I am willing to accept that I was wrong/made a mistake and admitted so, then I don't fit the criteria that in your opinion describes me to a "tee" do I?

We all know you only post to have a little pop at me but I've never tried to tie myself up in knots to avoid admitting a mistake as Wanderlust consistently does with this example of self confessedly voting for Brexit on one forum, whilst for the last 3 years raged and insulted anyone on here for doing so, on here, and now doing everything possible to avoid admitting he did the very same thing himself, being the ultimate example.

I might be many things but I am pretty straight forward and honest and not hypocritical in real life and also fwiw on social media too.

602How is the Tory government doing? - Page 21 Empty Re: How is the Tory government doing? on Fri Jul 24 2020, 08:32

Norpig

Norpig
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
I didn't realise or remember you had Dyslexia so apologies from me.

My Daughter has been told she has a mild form of it and does struggle with her reading a bit so i know it's not a laughing matter.

603How is the Tory government doing? - Page 21 Empty Re: How is the Tory government doing? on Fri Jul 24 2020, 10:25

wanderlust

wanderlust
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
@Norpig wrote:I didn't realise or remember you had Dyslexia so apologies from me.

My Daughter has been told she has a mild form of it and does struggle with her reading a bit so i know it's not a laughing matter.
It's not - one of my sons has it. The one about the dyslexic bloke who walked into a bra was in very bad taste. And I didn't know Sluffy has Sexdaily so I can only apologise.

604How is the Tory government doing? - Page 21 Empty Re: How is the Tory government doing? on Fri Jul 24 2020, 11:48

wanderlust

wanderlust
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse

605How is the Tory government doing? - Page 21 Empty Re: How is the Tory government doing? on Fri Jul 24 2020, 11:51

wanderlust

wanderlust
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
A reminder from our government.

Re Scotland:
Being in a strong union, working together, having no trade barriers = makes us mighty!

Re the EU:
Being in a strong union, working together, having no trade barriers = undemocratic, why do you hate your country, take back control!

606How is the Tory government doing? - Page 21 Empty Re: How is the Tory government doing? on Fri Jul 24 2020, 12:01

xmiles

xmiles
Jay Jay Okocha
Jay Jay Okocha
@wanderlust wrote:A reminder from our government.

Re Scotland:
Being in a strong union, working together, having no trade barriers = makes us mighty!

Re the EU:
Being in a strong union, working together, having no trade barriers = undemocratic, why do you hate your country, take back control!

So true!

607How is the Tory government doing? - Page 21 Empty Re: How is the Tory government doing? on Fri Jul 24 2020, 13:00

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin
@Norpig wrote:I didn't realise or remember you had Dyslexia so apologies from me.

My Daughter has been told she has a mild form of it and does struggle with her reading a bit so i know it's not a laughing matter.

Thanks but there was no need to apologise, I know you meant nothing by it.

It never held me back with my career and I guess to some extent made me who I am.

There is a theory that dyslexic's have higher IQ's than most, whilst I wouldn't wish to claim this what I can say is that having dyslexia made me think when I was writing as to what I wanted to say and which words I was confident to use that I could spell correctly! Maybe that's developed over the years as to why it comes naturally to me to think first before I do or say anything, to question and challenge what I read or hear, to think of other ways of doing stuff, alternatives?

Life's a lot easier these days for dyslexics with spellcheck and stuff that simply didn't exist when I was growing up.

I'm certain your daughter will be absolutely fine.


608How is the Tory government doing? - Page 21 Empty Re: How is the Tory government doing? on Fri Jul 24 2020, 13:08

Norpig

Norpig
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
Cheers Sluffy, she has been getting extra help at school (an online tool called Nessy has helped a lot) and she does seem to have improved her reading a lot. 

Its not been officially diagnosed just something the teacher noticed last year. She's had issues with numbers and letters being the wrong way round but she is only 8 so hopefully will be something she can get over.

Apparently an official diagnosis is expensive to get and the teachers feel she has a mild form and doesn't need to be formally accessed yet.

609How is the Tory government doing? - Page 21 Empty Re: How is the Tory government doing? on Fri Jul 24 2020, 13:46

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin
@Norpig wrote:Cheers Sluffy, she has been getting extra help at school (an online tool called Nessy has helped a lot) and she does seem to have improved her reading a lot. 

Its not been officially diagnosed just something the teacher noticed last year. She's had issues with numbers and letters being the wrong way round but she is only 8 so hopefully will be something she can get over.

Apparently an official diagnosis is expensive to get and the teachers feel she has a mild form and doesn't need to be formally accessed yet.

Don't know if this may be of some use, if not now, at a later date, but there is a British Dyslexia Association and this is what it says about children -

https://www.bdadyslexia.org.uk/advice/children

There also seems to be a local office near you if you ever had need to require its help -

https://www.bdadyslexia.org.uk/contact/find-a-local-dyslexia-association

Salford DA with East Manchester
Manchester, M30
Area covered
Greater Manchester



I'm sure though that she'll be absolutely fine.

610How is the Tory government doing? - Page 21 Empty Re: How is the Tory government doing? on Sun Jul 26 2020, 13:07

wanderlust

wanderlust
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
Interesting development on the Government's exit negotiation front. If you remember, their official 2019 impact report on a no deal was a 6.3% to 9% fall in the economy's growth, £ billions costs for border controls and that overall it would be "disastrous" for the economy? And that was before Covid.
As the fifth round of negotiations ended the other day with Frost admitting that a deal is now unlikely, Brexiteer mouthpiece James Dyson - who has already moved his HQ abroad to avoid contributing tax to the UK - has cut 600 UK jobs despite promising that he would never do that.

So I'm wondering if folk think we should now boycott Dyson products in the spirit of Robert Maxwell's  "Buy British" strap line of the failed "I'm Backing Britain" campaign of the 60's which has remarkable similarities to Brexit? (although on that occasion the economy slumped and we joined the EC to save our ass)

How is the Tory government doing? - Page 21 2Q==
Anyone think there's any future in boycotting products and services from companies that aren't British taxpayers?


NB: As an aside, when I was looking for an image of the badge above I discovered that back then, Paul McCartney wrote an anti-nationalist song called "I'm backing the UK" which morphed into "Back in the USSR" - I never knew!

Also anyone remember that the "Buy British" T-shirts were actually manufactured in Portugal because they couldn't find a British manufacturer that could compete?

Deja Vu or what?

Anyhoo given that the Government is clearly not "Getting Brexit Done" anyone think there's mileage in  an updated version of the "Buy British" campaign to try again to salvage our economy?

How is the Tory government doing? - Page 21 Business-commerce-japan-buy_british-made_in-open_market-globalization-jmo0412_low

611How is the Tory government doing? - Page 21 Empty Re: How is the Tory government doing? on Mon Jul 27 2020, 19:46

okocha

okocha
Andy Walker
Andy Walker
I would have thought it impossible for a govt to have to make so many u-turns. A little bit of prior consideration for the consequences of their pronouncements wouldn't go amiss.
Then, at the very least, some poor minister like Helen Whately wouldn't have to try to outface the questioners on the sudden rethink about quarantine plans like some programmed robot. 
And never ever an apology....

612How is the Tory government doing? - Page 21 Empty Re: How is the Tory government doing? on Mon Jul 27 2020, 21:08

gloswhite

gloswhite
Guðni Bergsson
Guðni Bergsson
As ever, their executing is piss poor, but at least they are doing it for the right reasons. There is also some truth in what Van Tam (?), in that there is no perfect time to do this, so why wait?

613How is the Tory government doing? - Page 21 Empty Re: How is the Tory government doing? on Tue Jul 28 2020, 09:54

Natasha Whittam

Natasha Whittam
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
@okocha wrote:I would have thought it impossible for a govt to have to make so many u-turns. A little bit of prior consideration for the consequences of their pronouncements wouldn't go amiss.

You've spent the last few months telling us how the government were too slow in their initial response to the virus, but now they've done something swift and decisive you're saying the opposite. I'm interested how you think they should have handled this.





614How is the Tory government doing? - Page 21 Empty Re: How is the Tory government doing? on Tue Jul 28 2020, 12:28

wanderlust

wanderlust
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
@Natasha Whittam wrote:

You've spent the last few months telling us how the government were too slow in their initial response to the virus, but now they've done something swift and decisive you're saying the opposite. I'm interested how you think they should have handled this.

I know this one's for Okocha but the "quick and decisive action" re Spain seems to be either ill-thought through or a strategic move - not sure which yet.
If it's been done to protect Brits, then the quarantine should have been applied to the specific areas experiencing an upturn i.e. Catalonia and Aragon both of which are in the north east rather than a blanket move covering the top holiday destinations in the islands and costas which aren't experiencing an upturn.
If it's been done as a shot across the bows of the EU re the exit negotiations, it's a good cover that may avoid retaliation but it's very, very risky.
Our Government refused to join the EU working group to revitalise tourism last month  so it may be related to that however if the EU decides to quarantine EU citizens returning from the UK we'll be worse off than any single EU country.
Just under 25 million EU citizens visited the UK for tourism purposes in 2019.
In the same period Brits undertook just under 67 million tourism trips to the EU but that was spread across all 26 countries.
Personally I don't think it was done for strategic purposes - at least I hope they are not that naive - in which case the Foreign Office should have done what they do elsewhere in the world i.e. target the specific affected or dangerous areas e.g. the north jungle of Thailand but not the touristic south for japanese encephalitis.

615How is the Tory government doing? - Page 21 Empty Re: How is the Tory government doing? on Tue Jul 28 2020, 13:38

okocha

okocha
Andy Walker
Andy Walker
@Natasha Whittam wrote:

You've spent the last few months telling us how the government were too slow in their initial response to the virus, but now they've done something swift and decisive you're saying the opposite. I'm interested how you think they should have handled this.

Not "swift and decisive" but swift and rash.

 It all boils down to the same fault:- inability to think clearly or make sound decisions at the right times, sometimes too hasty and sometimes much too slow. 

Lots of evidence that Boris is not bright or articulate; he thinks a lot of enthusiastic waffle punctuated with a few Latin phrases will sound impressive but he will not fool most people with even half a brain. 

He needs very good advice from those around him but is surrounded by nodding sycophants or is influenced by the rash, destabilising ideas and actions of Cummings. 

He lashes out emotionally at Starmer's cool scrutiny at PMQs because he knows he has met his superior intellect.

616How is the Tory government doing? - Page 21 Empty Re: How is the Tory government doing? on Tue Jul 28 2020, 14:00

Natasha Whittam

Natasha Whittam
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
@okocha wrote:
Not "swift and decisive" but swift and rash.

 It all boils down to the same fault:- inability to think clearly or make sound decisions at the right times, sometimes too hasty and sometimes much too slow. 

Lots of evidence that Boris is not bright or articulate; he thinks a lot of enthusiastic waffle punctuated with a few Latin phrases will sound impressive but he will not fool most people with even half a brain. 

He needs very good advice from those around him but is surrounded by nodding sycophants or is influenced by the rash, destabilising ideas and actions of Cummings. 

He lashes out emotionally at Starmer's cool scrutiny at PMQs because he knows he has met his superior intellect.

Utter waffle.

It was swift and decisive, the chances of people getting the virus in Spain and spreading it round the UK have been reduced. AND THAT IS THE MOST IMPORTANT THING.

617How is the Tory government doing? - Page 21 Empty Re: How is the Tory government doing? on Tue Jul 28 2020, 14:39

wanderlust

wanderlust
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
@Natasha Whittam wrote:

Utter waffle.

It was swift and decisive, the chances of people getting the virus in Spain and spreading it round the UK have been reduced. AND THAT IS THE MOST IMPORTANT THING.
I see what you're saying but there's about as much chance of catching the virus in most of Spain as there is anywhere else - including staying in the UK. 
In reality the only safe place is to stay in your own home, wash down everything you have delivered and fight off visitors with a shitty stick.
If "the science" is to be believed I'm surprised the Spanish are willing to let Brits visit - it's the old "acceptable deaths v economy" equation.

There is only one part of Spain that is worse off than Blackburn and most parts have lower rates then the UK. This explains it.

618How is the Tory government doing? - Page 21 Empty Re: How is the Tory government doing? on Tue Jul 28 2020, 14:52

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin
The government, like those of many other governments around the world find themselves between a rock and a hard place being they can't let the virus get out of control and overwhelm the health service yet at the same time need to get the economy moving to prevent a financial disaster.

On top of that they need to do it with the good will of the public - and we've seen already that many already don't seem to think the rules apply to them from Cummings to the 'laughing gas' canister loving chavs up and down the country!

If that's not hard enough they also have to do it with the built in time delay from catching and spreading the virus before people show symptoms of having it!

My guess as to what happened and why goes something like this.

It was clear by the time the lockdown ended that many people had grown weary of it and had began to flout it. At the same time it was imperative to get as many/all sectors of the economy going again and one of the worst effected was travel and tourism.

When we were coming out of lockdown many of the European country's started to unlock their boarders again and there became a huge pressure by airlines and travel company's for us to do the same.

The government had both a desire and faced a public pressure to do so - even the the medical experts were advising against but established these air bridges anyway.

Well looking at things now it seems that a number of European country's are now experience the dreaded 'second wave' of the virus (as I type I see Johnson is saying exactly this!) and maybe our youth topped up on Nitrous Oxide and cheap booze partying hard with other youths from around Spain, and Germany, might not be the best idea if we want to prevent a second wave ourselves and have thus decided to slam the door shut as fast as they could.

Tbh I reckon it is hard to know what to do for the best whoever happened to be in government at this time but at the end of the day unless we are in a country like China where lockdown MEANS lockdown, then you've got to control things the best you can and having masses who clearly have given up on lock down here, coming back and self isolating for 10/14 days is simply not going to be adhered to, so probably best to stop them mixing with others from country's were the virus is spreading again.

619How is the Tory government doing? - Page 21 Empty Re: How is the Tory government doing? on Tue Jul 28 2020, 15:03

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin
@wanderlust wrote:
@Natasha Whittam wrote:

Utter waffle.

It was swift and decisive, the chances of people getting the virus in Spain and spreading it round the UK have been reduced. AND THAT IS THE MOST IMPORTANT THING.
I see what you're saying but there's about as much chance of catching the virus in most of Spain as there is anywhere else - including staying in the UK. 
In reality the only safe place is to stay in your own home, wash down everything you have delivered and fight off visitors with a shitty stick.
If "the science" is to be believed I'm surprised the Spanish are willing to let Brits visit - it's the old "acceptable deaths v economy" equation.

There is only one part of Spain that is worse off than Blackburn and most parts have lower rates then the UK. This explains it.

The big difference though is that Covid doesn't just stop in one place.

I'm sure people from these areas in Spain are having holidays at the beaches, along with folk from other country's such as Germany who are having a second wave too.

It's not like everybody is going to Blackburn but as far as I'm aware there's nothing stopping the people of Blackburn, Bradford and other new cases hot spots from this country and similar places across Europe going to the Spanish holiday resorts and all mixing together.

The big problem is that people have the virus and are infectious but don't show symptoms, so nobody knows who has it and can pass it on and who doesn't.

And does anyone really think most people will voluntary isolate for 10/14 days when they get back because I don't!

PS - in your example it states that the Balearics rate is 8 per 100,000 population, which IS higher than England's current rate (not by much admittedly) and I suspect even higher than the UK rate if Scotland and Wales were added.

620How is the Tory government doing? - Page 21 Empty Re: How is the Tory government doing? on Tue Jul 28 2020, 15:32

wanderlust

wanderlust
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
I agree with most of your earlier post and perhaps unintentionally you make a good case for stopping all travel abroad however we were discussing the arbitrariness of applying quarantine to the whole of Spain regardless of the situation in the main holiday resorts or elsewhere in Europe or the world for that matter. If as you say, they are having a second wave in Germany why didn't the government apply the same criteria to Germany?
By applying a blanket ruling, doesn't that open the door for other countries applying the same for travel to the whole of the UK, purely based on the situation in Blackburn? 

Risky game to play as tourism contributes £67 billion to UK GDP but moreover with the decline of industry the tourism sector was projected in 2019 to grow to £257 billion by 2025 i.e. 10% of GDP so we could really suffer is other Governments follow suit.

And I agree that a lot of idiots won't self-isolate - but the Government won't enforce it.
If covid is going to continue to flare up in hotspots does that mean that we can look forward to quarantine being recommended - and without enforcement it really isn't anything more than a recommendation - by Governments around the world on a regular basis?

621How is the Tory government doing? - Page 21 Empty Re: How is the Tory government doing? on Tue Jul 28 2020, 16:21

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin
@wanderlust wrote:
I agree with most of your earlier post and perhaps unintentionally you make a good case for stopping all travel abroad however we were discussing the arbitrariness of applying quarantine to the whole of Spain regardless of the situation in the main holiday resorts or elsewhere in Europe or the world for that matter.

I suspect the worry is more to do with applying quarantine to the beach holiday resorts (which aren't showing significant cases for now) and used the excuse as mainland Spain which is (or at least one big part of it is).  Even if the resorts are 'British only' you still can have people from Blackburn, Oldham, even Leicester I would imagine (are residents from there allowed to go on holiday as I don't think the partial lockdown they are under prevents it - although I may be wrong) partying with kids from all over the country where there are currently no significant infection problems.

@wanderlust wrote:If as you say, they are having a second wave in Germany why didn't the government apply the same criteria to Germany?

I would guess because not millions are going to Germany in the first place, or to piss it up with loads of others on the beaches.

It would surprise me that by the time Octoberfest comes around that bans are in place to prevent travel because of the same reasoning.

@wanderlust wrote:By applying a blanket ruling, doesn't that open the door for other countries applying the same for travel to the whole of the UK, purely based on the situation in Blackburn? 

Yes it could but I doubt many would wish to as they all have their own airlines and travel industry to worry about and I don't think they would currently see any benefit in not travelling here as the tourist spots are mainly London and the cultural stuff down in the South East or Edinburgh/Scotland, neither of which constitutes a big risk AND isn't pissing it up with loads of others (which as I say I suspect the concern is all about for us in respect of the Spain travel ban.

@wanderlust wrote:Risky game to play as tourism contributes £67 billion to UK GDP but moreover with the decline of industry the tourism sector was projected in 2019 to grow to £257 billion by 2025 i.e. 10% of GDP so we could really suffer is other Governments follow suit.

And I agree that a lot of idiots won't self-isolate - but the Government won't enforce it.
If covid is going to continue to flare up in hotspots does that mean that we can look forward to quarantine being recommended - and without enforcement it really isn't anything more than a recommendation - by Governments around the world on a regular basis?

Not sure what you are saying in your last paragraph?

The Government has said only essential travel to Spain, which means you can't get travel insurance to go there and the travel industry cheap flights are no longer flying there other than to return people already out there.

I think the idea is simply to stop the idiots going on cheapo holidays in the Sun, catching the virus, returning and not isolating and spreading it around more widely than just the more heavily Asian (there I've said it - not because I'm racist but because it is a fact as the daily positive cases show) populated towns and cities of the north and midland were it is currently present and being dealt with.

622How is the Tory government doing? - Page 21 Empty Re: How is the Tory government doing? on Tue Jul 28 2020, 16:44

wanderlust

wanderlust
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
From the Spanish perspective - and they know British tourists well - they seem content to let Brits behave like twats as long as the money comes in. They are confident they can manage the risks because their control measures are far more targeted than ours.  

By comparison, our Government's control measures are absolute bollocks - failing track and trace, zero enforcement and what is tantamount to an appeal to the British public to consider others - effectively putting control in the hands of the idiots. And we know British people are idiots which is why we have packed pubs and beaches every time the sun comes out.

People from Blackburn - or Aragon for that matter - are free to travel to Britain's tourist destinations and on arrival will only be subject to the marginal controls our government "recommends" and presumably that is why we have the worst record in Europe.

So the point I'm making is that if you go down the road of quarantining returnees from an entire country based on a localised outbreak as our lot have - which will reduce travel to that country - there is surely a much stronger case for other countries to quarantine returnees from the UK.

And given that we are highly and increasingly dependent on tourism it looks very much like a potential own goal.

What the Government should be focussing on is running a tight ship here in conjunction with a targeted and efficient international travel policy in order to restore confidence and minimise the threat to both our own citizens and foreign visitors.

623How is the Tory government doing? - Page 21 Empty Re: How is the Tory government doing? on Tue Jul 28 2020, 17:01

okocha

okocha
Andy Walker
Andy Walker
@Natasha Whittam wrote:

Utter waffle.

It was swift and decisive, the chances of people getting the virus in Spain and spreading it round the UK have been reduced. AND THAT IS THE MOST IMPORTANT THING.
"Decisive" and unfair re a blanket ban, as the Spanish leader declared. The islands could and should have been treated differently.

Good call on places affected on the mainland but the Tories had the data before the Saturday, yet failed to alert the thousands of UK passngers in time, causing mayhem, distress and financial hardship. Most discovered the truth mid-flight. I wonder what Grant Schapps thinks!

624How is the Tory government doing? - Page 21 Empty Re: How is the Tory government doing? on Tue Jul 28 2020, 17:28

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin
@wanderlust wrote:From the Spanish perspective - and they know British tourists well - they seem content to let Brits behave like twats as long as the money comes in. They are confident they can manage the risks because their control measures are far more targeted than ours.  

By comparison, our Government's control measures are absolute bollocks - failing track and trace, zero enforcement and what is tantamount to an appeal to the British public to consider others - effectively putting control in the hands of the idiots. And we know British people are idiots which is why we have packed pubs and beaches every time the sun comes out.

People from Blackburn - or Aragon for that matter - are free to travel to Britain's tourist destinations and on arrival will only be subject to the marginal controls our government "recommends" and presumably that is why we have the worst record in Europe.

So the point I'm making is that if you go down the road of quarantining returnees from an entire country based on a localised outbreak as our lot have - which will reduce travel to that country - there is surely a much stronger case for other countries to quarantine returnees from the UK.

And given that we are highly and increasingly dependent on tourism it looks very much like a potential own goal.

What the Government should be focussing on is running a tight ship here in conjunction with a targeted and efficient international travel policy in order to restore confidence and minimise the threat to both our own citizens and foreign visitors.

Eh?

Tourism to the UK is effectively already dead I would suspect for this season, there's no access from America and not much is happen in London, theatres are closed, you have to book ahead for all the museums and Tower of London type stuff and there's no sport you can go and watch, or shops you can go in without queueing.

Spain only wants us to go there because we spend so much.  I'm sure they do a good job at the hotels, bars and beaches but the problem isn't them it is all our dickheads getting high and pissed and ignoring completely any semblance of social distancing or wearing masks.

Nobody is going to stop coming here unless the virus ramps up in England/the UK again, it's a simple as that really.

And another thing you don't seem to get is that it isn't about having the 'worst' record.  We can't do anything about that as it is gone, history, what we have to concentrate on is the here and now.

In the last week Spain as had more new cases than us - and rising and Germany the same - and rising!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-53566880

They might have to go into lockdown again if they aren't careful, we, for now, actually seem to be in a better place than them for a change.

The game is to stay in front of what's happening now, daily, the best we can than judge us on what as already happened.

Christ I'm certainly not wishing ill on other country's but it might be by using a football analogy that we went a goal down in the first five minutes but over the course of the game (the length of the pandemic) that the other team conceded an own goal (new cases grow quickly and they have to go back into lockdown) and we ended up about equal in the end.

Of course we might end up losing 7-0 but as it stands now we might be a goal down but we currently are the best team on the pitch for the moment - and that's what we have to concentrate our energies on and not the shambolic defending that gave away the goal.

625How is the Tory government doing? - Page 21 Empty Re: How is the Tory government doing? on Tue Jul 28 2020, 17:32

Natasha Whittam

Natasha Whittam
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
@okocha wrote:"Decisive" and unfair re a blanket ban, as the Spanish leader declared. The islands could and should have been treated differently.

Good call on places affected on the mainland but the Tories had the data before the Saturday, yet failed to alert the thousands of UK passngers in time, causing mayhem, distress and financial hardship. Most discovered the truth mid-flight. I wonder what Grant Schapps thinks!

While it's unfortunate that some holidaymakers have been caught up in this, this is a PANDEMIC, everyone who boarded a plane knew what was going on around the world. It's the risk they took.

You are the one who had a pop at the government about mixed messages, but now you've got a clear instruction with a clear message you're not happy.

626How is the Tory government doing? - Page 21 Empty Re: How is the Tory government doing? on Tue Jul 28 2020, 19:50

okocha

okocha
Andy Walker
Andy Walker
Nat, I don't dispute that those who risked taking a foreign holiday at this time(including one of Boris' own ministers!) were daft, but I'm correctly pointing out that our government could have been more discriminating as to which parts of Spain required avoidance. It would have been easy to exempt the Balearics, for example, as the Spanish minister requested.

 Of course the message was clear but heavy handed and could have been transmitted more quickly in order to save our tourists much grief by getting the message out before they had set foot on the planes. (presuming that you feel that they deserved to be warned!)

627How is the Tory government doing? - Page 21 Empty Re: How is the Tory government doing? on Wed Jul 29 2020, 09:37

okocha

okocha
Andy Walker
Andy Walker
Just to annoy Nat a bit more: Try to defend this:

From the BBC website....

Care homes in England were "thrown to the wolves" at the height of the coronavirus outbreak, a cross-party committee of MPs has concluded.  Their damning report calls the government's approach "slow, inconsistent and at times negligent". In particular, it says it was an "appalling" and "reckless" error to allow thousands of patients to be discharged from hospitals into homes without being tested in order to free up beds on wards.

About 25,000 patients were discharged between mid-March and mid-April before the government updated its policy to require testing. That update came, the report says, more than two weeks after the medical community was aware of asymptomatic transmission of the virus. 

At least 20,000 care home residents  in England and Wales have died from Covid-19 since the start of the outbreak. BBC Reality Check has looked closely at what advice homes were given, and when.

The Department of Health said it had been "working closely with care homes"
 
 

628How is the Tory government doing? - Page 21 Empty Re: How is the Tory government doing? on Wed Jul 29 2020, 11:39

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin
I'm not Nat but what other choice was there?

I keep trying to explain you can only do the best with what you've got at that time.

Covid was here, the priority was bed space at the NHS, there were always a large number of old people from care homes who in effect had been sent there to die and there was no ability at the time to test anything like the numbers of people to see if they were infected let alone use those tests on people who were only weeks away from dying anyway.

It was a choice of the lesser of two evils at the time to save the lives of those taken ill in the community and had beds to go to and had years of life in front of them if they were treated.


It was interesting to note one comment Chris Witty said only a few weeks ago when he said something like 'one of the mistakes we made was not knowing how care homes worked, namely that staff were often low paid, needed to work and were not paid sick pay, resulting in them working shifts in a number of care homes at the same time (I assume that inferred agency workers).  What he was saying was that carers were picking up the virus, getting sick but not only still going into work but also working at the same time in other care homes and spreading the virus (and infecting other agency staff who were themselves working in yet other care homes).  There were of course many care home workers catching the virus and showing no symptoms at all doing exactly the same.

This is what he said -

“This across the board this has been a major problem. Some of this I think comes from the fact we had not recognised what are in retrospect obvious but were not obvious points early on.

“For example, the fact that people working in multiple homes, people who were not paid sick leave – that is a clear risk. These were major risks in social care settings. There are a lot of things we have learnt that we can now do a lot better in social care and I don’t think any of us will look back at what happened in social care and say the ideal advice".

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/coronavirus-care-homes-chris-whitty-boris-johnson-a9630291.html

If you remember Johnson got himself in trouble a few weeks back when he made some reference about how care homes themselves added to the problems of deaths there which looking back now and since hearing Whitty's comment makes sense now.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-53315178

Yes I know my first link seems to strongly imply Whitty was having a go at Johnson in the second link but take away the political spin that the paper has added ie -

Professor Chris Whitty has suggested care homes are not to blame for the severe problems they faced with coronavirus in an apparent swipe at Boris Johnson remarks on the issue.

...and Johnson politically want to shift some of the blame away from the government ie -

Boris Johnson has been accused of trying to shift the blame for coronavirus deaths onto care homes.

...and I think the two of them are talking about the same thing namely they thought they were doing the right thing sending the old back to the care homes to die in order to free up bed space in hospitals but never knew/had any idea that care home workers (agency staff) would in effect be the conduit of spreading the virus from care home to care home and wreak such devastation and loss of lives in that sector.

629How is the Tory government doing? - Page 21 Empty Re: How is the Tory government doing? on Wed Jul 29 2020, 11:45

okocha

okocha
Andy Walker
Andy Walker
Use the Nightingale hospitals which have been lying virtually empty?

630How is the Tory government doing? - Page 21 Empty Re: How is the Tory government doing? on Wed Jul 29 2020, 11:58

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin
@okocha wrote:Use the Nightingale hospitals which have been lying virtually empty?

The Nightingale hospitals weren't even built at the time the old folk were being sent back to the care homes to create the expected bed spaces needed to deal with the virus and the Nightingales were built because even with the enhanced bed space at the hospitals after the oldies had gone there was still deemed vastly insufficient bed spaces to deal with the expected numbers of Covid patients needing treatment.

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