Coronavirus - will we survive?

wanderlust wrote:I found myself getting pissed off with a bloke at the petrol station today who waltzed in with his young daughter without wearing a face mask. The signs were clear, every other customer was covered up but the staff seemed unprepared to ask him to leave - presumably because he'd already filled his car with petrol? Or that they were kids and he was a man?
I just think it's ridiculous that the government hands responsibility for enforcement of the "guidelines" (NB guidelines not laws!) to retail staff. 

That chimes with the new survey cited by Together (NHS,employers etc) that suggests the upturn in community unity experienced during lockdown is starting to fray at the edges again. I for one am not happy about reckless idiots jeopardising lives.

No one is happy about reckless idiots jeopardising lives but what can you do, put a policeman in every shop or something?

Any law or 'guidelines' are only workable if they are strictly enforced (see China) or accepted and adopted by the vast majority of people, which to be fair most here do.

Clearly there's a growing number of younger people who don't think the rules apply to them (and also know that the virus won't kill them) and san fairy ann to the rest of us!

The bottom line is that the virus is only a very big problem for the old and/or sick and the rest know that they will be ok, so why should their lives be turned upside down for us old farts and cripples.

They do have a point though.

It is what it is and all us old farts and the sick can only try to understand the risks and minimise them in our own particular circumstances until someone comes up with a vaccine or something to save us because we really can't expect the world to stop turning just to protect us.

wanderlust wrote:Interesting theory although it's predicated on figures which very few people have any faith in - especially as the numbers conflict with the government's own "excess deaths" figure which puts covid-related deaths at over 60k so far.

Registered deaths are undeniable, government spin on the other hand.....

Don't you mean you and your mates on social media don't have any faith in!

There are three methods of measuring deaths, the daily notifications from the government, the number of death certificates that mention Covid and excess deaths, the last two are from the ONS which is independent of the government.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-51768274

The totals to the 29th July are (rounded up)
46,000
56,000 and,
64,000

Why would the government 'spin' a lower number when they and everybody else knows the ONS is daily stating higher ones???

Clearly initial figures that the government give daily are subject to incompleteness (not every hospital or wherever the community GP's report to) files their reports daily and obviously they are prone to human error.

Similarly 'excess deaths' will include those who have sadly died, not because of Covid directly but because their other illnesses have not been able to be treated properly whilst the pandemic as been on going.

It would therefore seem logical that Covid deaths are somewhere in between the two totals with the death certificate total of 56,000 being as good as any.

Apparently 616,000 people died in the UK two years ago - 2018.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/281488/number-of-deaths-in-the-united-kingdom-uk/

The difference between the death certificate total of 56,000 and the governments daily total of 46,000 being around 10,000 which is arguably about the true totalish?

So if 620,000 (rounded up) died in a full year in 2018, then something like 310,000 died in half the year (yes I know the deaths are seasonally effected but lets take 310,000 as a reasonable total)

The Covid total is up to the end of July but as if we take off two months for January and Feb when nothing much happened Covid death wise then we are talking about 10,000 deaths in a similar 6 months period.

So 10,000 divided by 310,000 multiplied by 100 = gives a margin of error rate of just 3.22%.

Higher than one would like but completely understandable under the circumstances of all the pandemic entails.

So no, I don't believe the government are trying to spin the death totals even though the nutjobs on Twitter and Facebook believe they are!

Sluffy wrote:

wanderlust wrote:I found myself getting pissed off with a bloke at the petrol station today who waltzed in with his young daughter without wearing a face mask. The signs were clear, every other customer was covered up but the staff seemed unprepared to ask him to leave  I for one am not happy about reckless idiots jeopardising lives.

No one is happy about reckless idiots jeopardising lives but what can you do, put a policeman in every shop or something?

Any law or 'guidelines' are only workable if they are strictly enforced (see China) or accepted and adopted by the vast majority of people, which to be fair most here do.

Clearly there's a growing number of younger people who don't think the rules apply to them (and also know that the virus won't kill them) and san fairy ann to the rest of us!

The bottom line is that the virus is only a very big problem for the old and/or sick and the rest know that they will be ok, so why should their lives be turned upside down for us old farts and cripples.

They do have a point though.

It is what it is and all us old farts and the sick can only try to understand the risks and minimise them in our own particular circumstances until someone comes up with a vaccine or something to save us because we really can't expect the world to stop turning just to protect us.

Just thought I'd update this a bit, called in on my Tesco local, or whatever they are called - the corner shop size ones not the big super store ones.

I last went in just 3 days ago and everybody was wearing a mask, this evening I counted 7 who hadn't, one of whom was someone I know well enough to nod and say hello to and - this is the bit that got me - saw me on my last visit just three days previous - and asked me where my mask was!!!  (I was just literally  getting out of the car and hadn't had time to put it on - he had one of those super duper mask type things with what looked like filters to me).

So in just three days he'd gone from protector of the people to couldn't give a fuck!

He's about my age as well!

Is it any wonder that a second wave is on its way here?

Went to Morrisons tonight and only saw one person without a mask. The people of Preston are so far taking this seriously.

On the downside, there were only 2 multipacks of Twirls left.

Sluffy wrote:

Just thought I'd update this a bit, called in on my Tesco local, or whatever they are called - the corner shop size ones not the big super store ones.

I last went in just 3 days ago and everybody was wearing a mask, this evening I counted 7 who hadn't, one of whom was someone I know well enough to nod and say hello to and - this is the bit that got me - saw me on my last visit just three days previous - and asked me where my mask was!!!  (I was just literally  getting out of the car and hadn't had time to put it on - he had one of those super duper mask type things with what looked like filters to me).

So in just three days he'd gone from protector of the people to couldn't give a fuck!

He's about my age as well!

Is it any wonder that a second wave is on its way here?

So what's your solution?

wanderlust wrote:

Sluffy wrote:

Just thought I'd update this a bit, called in on my Tesco local, or whatever they are called - the corner shop size ones not the big super store ones.

I last went in just 3 days ago and everybody was wearing a mask, this evening I counted 7 who hadn't, one of whom was someone I know well enough to nod and say hello to and - this is the bit that got me - saw me on my last visit just three days previous - and asked me where my mask was!!!  (I was just literally  getting out of the car and hadn't had time to put it on - he had one of those super duper mask type things with what looked like filters to me).

So in just three days he'd gone from protector of the people to couldn't give a fuck!

He's about my age as well!

Is it any wonder that a second wave is on its way here?

So what's your solution?

Do it the 'China' way or accept that there isn't a solution and plan the best you can to work around it. I tend to shop through the week when it is a bit quieter and do it out of town at smaller local shops where I reckon the neighbourhood is more likely to be patronised by people more likely to follow the 'rules' than those who don't.  Tonight I went a bit later, around sevenish, thinking it would be ok too - and to be fair the majority did have masks, but I was taken aback that in just 3 days I would say about 1 in 4 or 1 in 5 hadn't!

Fwiw the score was 2 white faces and 5 black faces and the age range was from a youth to a pensioner!

You've got to bear in mind though that 80/90% (possibly more) of the people going about their business won't be aversely effected if they did catch the virus, it's only the likes of us who will be, so there's not really much incentive for them to wear masks, keep 1m plus and lockdown when told, etc.

In a way I'm grateful that so many people, the vast majority, so far are, but that will wear off as and when the bother of doing so out ways their fear of catching the virus as it 'only kills the old and sick fuckers' - which unfortunately it does!

This made me laugh - action being taken in Greater Manchester, east Lancashire and west Yorkshire starting midnight Thursday.

Also the Muslim festival of Eid (for those who don't know there are two each year) starts from midnight Thursday -


Miqdaad Versi, spokesman for the Muslim Council of Britain, said the restrictions were likely to have a "large impact" on Muslim families celebrating Eid on Friday.

"Unclear why such short notice provided but important that this message is cascaded as quickly as possible given it goes live within a few hours," he tweeted.

I think I know why, pretty obvious really but no one can say for fear of being labelled a racist.

The fear is that the spread will increase rapidly with all the social mingling and celebrating from the Asian community tomorrow if allowed to go ahead, where the problem is largely present already.

Sluffy wrote:This made me laugh - action being taken in Greater Manchester, east Lancashire and west Yorkshire starting midnight Thursday.

Also the Muslim festival of Eid (for those who don't know there are two each year) starts from midnight Thursday -


Miqdaad Versi, spokesman for the Muslim Council of Britain, said the restrictions were likely to have a "large impact" on Muslim families celebrating Eid on Friday.

"Unclear why such short notice provided but important that this message is cascaded as quickly as possible given it goes live within a few hours," he tweeted.

I think I know why, pretty obvious really but no one can say for fear of being labelled a racist.

The fear is that the spread will increase rapidly with all the social mingling and celebrating from the Asian community tomorrow if allowed to go ahead, where the problem is largely present already.

Going by the general tone and selectiveness of your posts on this subject to date I'm surprised that you're upset at the thought of people spreading the virus in their communities. Let's hope the community leaders have a sensible plan in place to deal with it.

..and so it begins....
Question is when will the government enforce it? 
You can apparently go to the pub but you can't have the next door neighbours or your kids round to yours.
Question: Can you meet the neighbours and/or your kids in the pub? 


Whatever.

wanderlust wrote:Going by the general tone and selectiveness of your posts on this subject to date I'm surprised that you're upset at the thought of people spreading the virus in their communities. Let's hope the community leaders have a sensible plan in place to deal with it.

Not exactly sure what you are getting at there but if you are implying I'm racist (which I believe you are) then you best think again.

I've lived and worked for the large bulk of my life and career in authorities with high levels of multi-ethnicity, cultures and communities and I know many good people of all religions, skin colours and political views - I know a fair few bad ones too.

I don't judge people by their colour, I judge them by their actions.

It's blindingly obvious that the measures are because of Eid tomorrow (well today now!) and I would hazard a well educated guess, that the announcement wasn't made earlier for fear of stoking up potential racial tensions.  The announcement at the last minute is a fait accompli, and no doubt put across along the lines that the government had no choice in view of positive test data leading up to this decision having to be taken now.

I also take serious offence at your clear implication that I would want the virus spreading in the Muslim community in particular - I wish ill on no man - not even you.

I'll tell you straight though, anymore of your racist slurs against me and you'll be gone - I'm not going to be tolerating that shit from anyone.

Sluffy wrote:

Not exactly sure what you are getting at there but if you are implying I'm racist (which I believe you are) then you best think again.

I've lived and worked for the large bulk of my life and career in authorities with high levels of multi-ethnicity, cultures and communities and I know many good people of all religions, skin colours and political views - I know a fair few bad ones too.

I don't judge people by their colour, I judge them by their actions.

It's blindingly obvious that the measures are because of Eid tomorrow (well today now!) and I would hazard a well educated guess, that the announcement wasn't made earlier for fear of stoking up potential racial tensions.  The announcement at the last minute is a fait accompli, and no doubt put across along the lines that the government had no choice in view of positive test data leading up to this decision having to be taken now.

I also take serious offence at your clear implication that I would want the virus spreading in the Muslim community in particular - I wish ill on no man - not even you.

I'll tell you straight though, anymore of your racist slurs against me and you'll be gone - I'm not going to be tolerating that shit from anyone.

I don't think my comment made any kind of "racist slur against you" but I'm sorry if I've caused offence. 
I simply looked at the picture you paint in posts 122, 124, 135, 137, 167 and others and there are bits of it that come across to me as old school racial stereotyping of the sort that even the right wing media shun these days but maybe that's me being over-sensitive - and if you say reinforcing racial stereotypes was not your intention then I'll take your word for it.

wanderlust wrote:

Sluffy wrote:

Not exactly sure what you are getting at there but if you are implying I'm racist (which I believe you are) then you best think again.

I've lived and worked for the large bulk of my life and career in authorities with high levels of multi-ethnicity, cultures and communities and I know many good people of all religions, skin colours and political views - I know a fair few bad ones too.

I don't judge people by their colour, I judge them by their actions.

It's blindingly obvious that the measures are because of Eid tomorrow (well today now!) and I would hazard a well educated guess, that the announcement wasn't made earlier for fear of stoking up potential racial tensions.  The announcement at the last minute is a fait accompli, and no doubt put across along the lines that the government had no choice in view of positive test data leading up to this decision having to be taken now.

I also take serious offence at your clear implication that I would want the virus spreading in the Muslim community in particular - I wish ill on no man - not even you.

I'll tell you straight though, anymore of your racist slurs against me and you'll be gone - I'm not going to be tolerating that shit from anyone.

I don't think my comment made any kind of "racist slur against you" but I'm sorry if I've caused offence. 
I simply looked at the picture you paint in posts 122, 124, 135, 137, 167 and others and there are bits of it that come across to me as old school racial stereotyping of the sort that even the right wing media shun these days but maybe that's me being over-sensitive - and if you say reinforcing racial stereotypes was not your intention then I'll take your word for it.

In my lifetime I've seen the pendulum swing from me befriending the first ever black child to start at my primary school, Iqbal Mohamed and his younger brother Hanif, who were shunned by most others because of the colour of their skin to working with black people openly taking the piss (played the racist card) because society had got itself to the state where anything said or done to them was claimed by them of being racist to them and management (and society at times) found it easier to turn a blind eye than acting against them and face being labelled racist.  

Clearly somewhere between judging people by the colour of their skin and using the colour of your skin to take liberties is where we need to be and we clearly are not there yet, racism is still rampant and so to is open abuse of the society we live in by some/many black people who do things that others can't because they can, by playing the 'race card'.  

There's problems at both ends of the 'racism' scale by both 'white' and 'black' people.

Both ends need fixing - not just one.

We as a society can't even speak the name of what the issue is, look at some of the statements the government have said about this leading to the lockdown in these areas -

South Asian community, family's with multi generations living together, spread in households not community (code for not down the pubs), areas of social deprivation, high density housing, insufficient translation information available etc, etc, etc.

It's not hard to see where the 'officially' identified cause on the growing infection rate in these authorities is but to some (you for instance) any naming of the elephant is the room is taken as 'racism' and not 'realism'.  

You've labelled me in your own mind now and I don't doubt that will ever change, you even took the bother to go back through the thread and post a list of comments I made you clearly believe to be racist.

Up to you to believe what you want on the internet but if you actually knew me in real life you would know how wide of the mark you actually are.

Sluffy wrote:Up to you to believe what you want on the internet but if you actually knew me in real life you would know how wide of the mark you actually are.

Ditto

Anyone but the governments fault.

If you like black humour, you'll love this:-

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/jul/30/matt-hancock-speech-on-nhs-future-leaves-audience-comatose

T.R.O.Y. wrote:

Anyone but the governments fault.

It isn't the government that is spreading the virus - it's people - so whose fault is it then?

It's all of our fault not BAME communities alone, we've all seen people flout the 'rules' most of us have ourselves!

Until we either do a 'China' type lockdown or take responsibility's for our own actions then this will simply carry on until someone finally comes up with a vaccine or something to save us from it.

(I used to religiously follow the one way arrows in stores - I think I was probably the last one in my area to do so - but gave it up because everybody else had and I figured by continuing to walk down shopping aisles I didn't need I was walking past more people (who weren't wearing masks back then anyway) than if I just shopped normally like everybody else were now doing - so what was the point continuing?).

The virus is endemic, I’m perfectly comfortable with local lockdowns when required, I’m not comfortable with MPs deflecting blame on to others when restrictions are being imposed. Particularly when said MP is a Tory, the party whose shambolic handling of the crisis has made things so much worse.

If he wants examples of people not taking the crisis seriously enough look no further than Cummings.

T.R.O.Y. wrote:The virus is endemic, I’m perfectly comfortable with local lockdowns when required, I’m not comfortable with MPs deflecting blame on to others when restrictions are being imposed. Particularly when said MP is a Tory, the party whose shambolic handling of the crisis has made things so much worse.

I'm not sure how you can blame the government for my neighbour having a huge BBQ in the middle of strict lockdown.

But give it a go if you like.

T.R.O.Y. wrote:The virus is endemic, I’m perfectly comfortable with local lockdowns when required, I’m not comfortable with MPs deflecting blame on to others when restrictions are being imposed. Particularly when said MP is a Tory, the party whose shambolic handling of the crisis has made things so much worse.

If he wants examples of people not taking the crisis seriously enough look no further than Cummings.

Think the big difference here is that it doesn't seem to be individuals not following the rules but communities.  Lets not ignore the elephant in the room, he is talking about the Muslim community.

What I've not really got my head around is why there clearly is a problem in Muslim communities in the areas now in 'lockdown' in particular (and Leicester previously) but non to speak of in Muslim communities in and around London?

For instance in the 2011 Census Slough had an Asian ethnicity of 39.7%

http://www.slough.gov.uk/council/joint-strategic-needs-assessment/ethnicity.aspx

Whilst Blackburn was 28%

https://www.blackburn.gov.uk/facts-and-figures/people

Of course this information is nearly 10 years out of date but I suggest that Slough and Blackburn are probably not dissimilar to each other ethnicity wise these days but Slough currently has a seven day average of new cases per 100,000 population of 5.4 (138 out of 315 authorities) whilst Blackburn is 88 (1st out of 315)

Top 160 local authorities for #covid19 by cases per 100,000 residents reported in the last 7 days@BlackburnDarwen 88 cases per 100k (87 yday)@OldhamCouncil 60 (57 y)@Leicester_News 59 (60 y)@BradfordMDC 50 (47 y)@TraffordCouncil 41 (42 y)

Average for England is 8.6 pic.twitter.com/mbsfYwWcoE

— andrew (@avds) July 30, 2020

As far as I know they are culturally the same through out the country so the best guess I could come up with was a sort of difference in sophistication, knowledge and behaviour between the two area, the 'City' mentality and the 'rural/town' mentality?

There must be something that differentiates between the two otherwise it would be the same behaviour and results in all Muslim communities.

That's my reasoning anyway.

Natasha Whittam wrote:

I'm not sure how you can blame the government for my neighbour having a huge BBQ in the middle of strict lockdown.

But give it a go if you like.

I can’t and won’t, your neighbour being thick isn’t the governments fault. Hope you told him he’s a twat from your penthouse?