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Bolton Nuts » BWFC » Bolton Wanderers Banter » If Jaaskelainen has been our best ever keeper who has been the second best?

If Jaaskelainen has been our best ever keeper who has been the second best?

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Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin
Just seen this as wondered if people thought this bloke might be?

xmiles

xmiles
Jay Jay Okocha
Jay Jay Okocha
Eddie Hopkinson

okocha

okocha
Andy Walker
Andy Walker
No. Eddie Hopkinson

Ha! You beat me to it xmiles!

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:Eddie Hopkinson

I'm old enough to have seen him play.

He was probably the best around at his time but that was 50 years ago!

His height - believe it or not - was just under 5ft 9 inches and he weighed under 12 stone - he'd simply stand no chance in the modern game and thus couldn't possibly be our second best keeper ever.

Eddie's stats -

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

wanderlust

wanderlust
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
Hoppy was the best I’ve seen followed by Jussi. Perhaps his relatively diminutive stature made the outstanding saves he made look even more spectacular as he had further to travel? But boy was he exciting to watch - must have had springs for legs.

wessy

wessy
El Hadji Diouf
El Hadji Diouf
"Hoppy is better than Yashin" the song went and Yashin was the best in the world back then,

Hard to compare  both played at the highest level for most of their careers both racked up over 500 appearences, Hoppy's height in the modern game would probably have meant he would be rejected these days, one things for sure both were great servents of our club, both earned our respect and no one else should really be in the argument regarding the top two keepers ever. 

I can't seperate them.

wessy

wessy
El Hadji Diouf
El Hadji Diouf
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:

I'm old enough to have seen him play.

He was probably the best around at his time but that was 50 years ago!

His height - believe it or not - was just under 5ft 9 inches and he weighed under 12 stone - he'd simply stand no chance in the modern game and thus couldn't possibly be our second best keeper ever.

Eddie's stats -

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
I also saw him play , so because he was small and may not get the chance today he can't be regarded ? lets ignore the fact that he played 578 games at the top level and gained 14 Englang caps. No one mentioned that he had to play in todays game by that measure You could argue Nat Lofthouse was to slow to play today etc

He should be judged on his merits ie what he actually did.

Name one other Bolton Keeper that can be compare to Eddie other than Jussi ?.



Last edited by wessy on Sat Aug 22 2020, 10:51; edited 1 time in total

boltonbonce

boltonbonce
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
Hoppy's testimonial game was great. Reminds me to dig the programme out to refresh my memory.

xmiles

xmiles
Jay Jay Okocha
Jay Jay Okocha
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
I also saw him play , so because he was small and may not get the chance today he can't be regarded ? lets ignore the fact that he played 519 games at the top level and gained 14 Englang caps. No one mentioned that he had to play in todays game by that measure You could argue Nat Lofthouse was to slow to play today etc

He should be judged on his merits ie what he actually did.

Name one other Bolton Keeper that can be compare to Eddie other than Jussi ?.

I would put Keith Branagan in third place.

wessy

wessy
El Hadji Diouf
El Hadji Diouf
Branagan, Siddall, Mcdonagh take your pick

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:

I'm old enough to have seen him play.

He was probably the best around at his time but that was 50 years ago!

His height - believe it or not - was just under 5ft 9 inches and he weighed under 12 stone - he'd simply stand no chance in the modern game and thus couldn't possibly be our second best keeper ever.

Eddie's stats -

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
I also saw him play , so because he was small and may not get the chance today he can't be regarded ? lets ignore the fact that he played 519 games at the top level and gained 14 Englang caps. No one mentioned that he had to play in todays game by that measure You could argue Nat Lofthouse was to slow to play today etc

He should be judged on his merits ie what he actually did.

Name one other Bolton Keeper that can be compare to Eddie other than Jussi ?.

I DID though - I asked who was our greatest EVER two keepers and you've even answered your own question in respect to it!

If because of his lack of height and stature he couldn't get into today's teams then whoever have been in our 'today's teams' recently must by definition be a better player does it not?

Otherwise he would be playing in them and not they!

So how can he be our greatest EVER goalkeeper /second greatest when the likes of Matthews, Alnwick, Howard etc, to name just three would be picked ahead of him in todays game?

I'm not saying he wasn't great in his generation BUT that was then and the games and physicality of the game has moved on greatly since then.

And yes Lofthouse wouldn't be our greatest striker EVER if other players would be picked before him in the modern era.

By definition you can't be the greatest EVER if other people from the modern era would walk in a modern day team in front of them.

wessy

wessy
El Hadji Diouf
El Hadji Diouf
You and i make the assumption due to height that he would not play in today's game, he may well have proved us both wrong, your making an argument to fit the post that's fine but the thread is who do you think would be rated number two and EH wins hands down.

Once you mention Howard and Matthews in the same breath as Eddie you simply lose the arguement.

Why are you comparing generations and then dismissing what they achieved because the games moved on (yes you said he was good in his time) but then dismiss what they achieved. 

End of the day it's about opinions, one thing is for certain if you did a poll of best goalscorers BWFC fans would to a man say Nat Lofthouse , not one would have any present day striker in that pole.

It's a bit like saying Ovett and Coe were not one of our best middle distance runners at 1500 because Farah ran faster times in that event



Last edited by wessy on Sat Aug 22 2020, 12:14; edited 1 time in total

boltonbonce

boltonbonce
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
As a young lad Eddie was ten feet tall to me.  I'm not going to judge greatness on size, nor what he would have achieved in the modern game.
Over 500 appearances for the Wanderers, an England international, and an FA Cup winner in 1958, I'll judge him on that, and the love and respect he earned, on and off the field during a very fine career.
5ft 8inches, perhaps, but a giant to any Wanderer who had the privilege of seeing him play.

wessy

wessy
El Hadji Diouf
El Hadji Diouf
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:As a young lad Eddie was ten feet tall to me.  I'm not going to judge greatness on size, nor what he would have achieved in the modern game.
Over 500 appearances for the Wanderers, an England international, and an FA Cup winner in 1958, I'll judge him on that, and the love and respect he earned, on and off the field during a very fine career.
5ft 8inches, perhaps, but a giant to any Wanderer who had the privilege of seeing him play.
:clap:

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:You and i make the assumption due to height that he would not play in today's game, he may well have proved us both wrong, your making an argument to fit the post that's fine but the thread is who do you think would be rated number two and EH wins hands down.

Once you mention Howard and Matthews in the same breath as Eddie you simply lose the arguement.

Why are you comparing generations and then dismissing what they achieved because the games moved on (yes you said he was good in his time) but then dismiss what they achieved. 

End of the day it's about opinions, one thing is for certain if you did a poll of best goalscorers BWFC fans would to a man say Nat Lofthouse , not one would have any present day striker in that pole.

It's a bit like saying Ovett and Coe were not one of our best middle distance at 1500  runners because Farah ran faster times in that event

It's all about context.

Hopkinson was a great keeper in his age, one of the very best but we all know that he would not be given a chance these days.

Our current defenders tower over him by almost a foot and the size of players both in and attack during corners would totally dominate and block him out of being in anyway effective.

You even stated your opinion that he wouldn't be picked in todays games - so you can't have it both ways that he couldn't get into a team that Matthews played in this season just gone, whilst at the same time say he's a better keeper than him - those two statements conflict with each other do they not?

Time moves on.

You can be the greatest of your generation but not get in the squad fifty years later with the same size and physicality you have.

Ovett and Coe were our best 1,500m runners 40 years ago and maybe with modern diet and training they could compete if they were born in the current generation of runners but Hopkinson is simply several inches short of even being considered to be a keeper these days.

Let me try to give you some context England's women keeper is Karen Bardsley and she is taller than Hopkinson at 5ft 9 inches - and I don't know if you watch the women's game but the keepers look like a pea on a drum, the goals are clearly too large for them.  Alisson at Liverpool who is 6ft 3 inches and fourteen and a half stone makes the goals look tiny in comparison, that because it is not just about height but also someone who is that much taller has arms and legs that are commensurately longer too - they get to places small guys/girls simply aren't able to reach or cover.

Alisson - even Matthews - are able to reach crosses and shots that Hopkinson in his prime simply physically could not.

That's just the way it is.

No disrespect to Hopkinson at all, and if he were alive today I'm sure he would happily say the same.

wessy

wessy
El Hadji Diouf
El Hadji Diouf
No problem just as you say it's opinion, just like it's an opinion that he couldn't get too crosses today, the bottom line is he is being written out of history because of his height, so seeing this  is just a laugh.

I rule out Jussi on the grounds that he his too old and could not by your reasoning be picked above todays incumbent.

So the official pole now reads 1) Billy Crellin Appearences (0)
                                            2) Matt Alexander Appearemces (1)  Very Happy Very Happy lol!

Natasha Whittam

Natasha Whittam
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
Definitely John McGinlay, he never conceded a goal.

xmiles

xmiles
Jay Jay Okocha
Jay Jay Okocha
Laughing

boltonbonce

boltonbonce
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
Let's not forget Richard H. Pym.

wessy

wessy
El Hadji Diouf
El Hadji Diouf
McGinlay great record ,but not forgeting a true great did actually goalkeep for Bolton, Peter Shilton

boltonbonce

boltonbonce
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
Stan Hanson had a decent record. Ran the Post Office near Burnden when he retired.

wanderlust

wanderlust
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
Folk cite Hoppy’s height (5’10” officially) but he never struggled with crosses or massive old school CFs as he had an incredible leap on him and it wouldn’t surprise me if he got higher than most bigger goalies. I’m with Bonce on this - the man was a giant.

boltonbonce

boltonbonce
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:Folk cite Hoppy’s height (5’10” officially) but he never struggled with crosses or massive old school CFs as he had an incredible leap on him and it wouldn’t surprise me if he got higher than most bigger goalies. I’m with Bonce on this - the man was a giant.
And keepers didn't get the protection they do now. Ask Harry Gregg.  Surprised

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:Folk cite Hoppy’s height (5’10” officially) but he never struggled with crosses or massive old school CFs as he had an incredible leap on him and it wouldn’t surprise me if he got higher than most bigger goalies. I’m with Bonce on this - the man was a giant.

All sites I can find has his height around shown as 5' 8 to 9 inches.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Anyway even allowing for being 5' 10" as you claim, then maybe this tweet of Marc Iles who I believe is around that sort of height, puts it into context of how keepers of that size would have to cope with both defenders and attackers all being generally much bigger in size these days.

Ten Bobsworth


Andy Walker
Andy Walker
Jaaskelainen better than Hoppy? Its like saying Kevin Davies was better than Lofty.

Jaaskelainen was a decent enough shot-stopper but he rarely dominated his area, was frequently slow or hesitant in reading situations and couldn't hold a light to the decisive, confident, brave, razor-sharp reactions of Hoppy. But if you said best paid, that would be another matter.

And whilst I'm on who are all these folk on WW more interested in Wigan's finances than they are in Bolton's?

Norpig

Norpig
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
I'm not old enough to remember Hopkinson so it has to be Branagan for me closely followed by Kevin Rose (he never grows)  Very Happy

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:Jaaskelainen better than Hoppy? Its like saying Kevin Davies was better than Lofty.

Jaaskelainen was a decent enough shot-stopper but he rarely dominated his area, was frequently slow or hesitant in reading situations and couldn't hold a light to the decisive, confident, brave, razor-sharp reactions of Hoppy. But if you said best paid, that would be another matter.

And whilst I'm on who are all these folk on WW more interested in Wigan's finances than they are in Bolton's?

Great to hear from you again Bob, hope you and yours are all keeping safe.

Clearly I am outnumbered on this one but I still stick by what I've consistently said above in that a Eddie Hopkinson in his prime would be physically unable to cope with the game in the modern era.

If he could then it stands to reason that professional football would be populated with goalkeepers at his height and with a similar skill set as he had and the facts are that there isn't and furthermore I doubt you would even have many/any keepers in the top four tiers of our game under 6 foot, most being even taller than that height.

As for all those on ww they seem more keen on Wigan going bust than interested/understanding anything to do with their finances and most clearly never having any grasp on our clubs finances at the time - or quite frankly since!

I've been interested myself as to what has been going on at Wigan (not so with clubs in general with similar problems like for instance Charlton and Macclesfield) probably because I used to work there at the time they were elected to the football league and sort of had a passing interest in them ever since (although if I ever did have a second team it would have been Bury as they were the only other team apart from ourselves who's score I used to look out for).

I tend to view their fan forum site Latics Speyk on a daily basis and even have considered joining it to try and help put them right on a few of their major misconceptions they have but I resist as I know it would only lead to abuse and I've been through that enough times on here and ww simply as a thanks for trying to help people better understand what is happening.

I've shared my views on the thread we have on Nuts and unless something drastic happens in the coming week then I think their future in the EFL is looking very bleak indeed.

Hope you pop back and post again soon

I must admit you were the first thought I had when I read our first league match was against you know who!

Very Happy

Stay safe.

T.R.O.Y.


Tony Kelly
Tony Kelly
Obviously impossible to compare players of such different eras and say if they could or couldn’t have done it. The game is completely different now, but so is the equipment, conditioning and training so perhaps if Hopkinson had been born 50 years later and enjoyed those benefits he could have been the best keeper in the world. No way of saying for sure.

Jaaskelainaen clearly the best keeper we’ve had in the past 30 years though, don’t agree with Ten Bon’s assessment that he was just a good shot stopper who read the game too slowly? How often did you see him get caught out on crosses or indecision leading to a goal? Maybe once a season? A handful of times over a long career with us basically. If we ever have a better keeper than Jussi we’ll be back in the big time.

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:Obviously impossible to compare players of such different eras and say if they could or couldn’t have done it. The game is completely different now, but so is the equipment, conditioning and training so perhaps if Hopkinson had been born 50 years later and enjoyed those benefits he could have been the best keeper in the world. No way of saying for sure.

Unless you stretch him out on the rack he would still only be 5ft 8 inches and there simply are not keepers of that height anywhere near the top levels of football these days.

He could do all the modern day conditioning and training he'd like but he'd still only be 5 ft 8 - there's simply no getting away from that fact.

Norpig

Norpig
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
At 5ft 8 he wouldn't have even made it out of an Academy these days.

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