Posts : 2748 Join date : 2013-06-17 Age : 71 Location : Bolton Formerly Chew Moor
Glad to hear that the helicpter incident the rider is recovering, I recorded the highlight show and saw the finish, i only missed possibly 1 minute.
Allthough i can see how all the tactics are bing played out and that some riders not in GC contention may have a day out of the lime light then go for the stage win, i still find it surprising that despite only 6 stages two riders have won 2 stages, yet they don't figure in the top 10 GC positions despite showing well during the tour, against the riders who are placed 2nd, 3rd and 4th who i have hardly noticed at all ? (i know it's me, just hard to figure whilst watching) Scratches head lol
Being a newbie i can see what an awesome sprinter Peter Sagen has been, do you thing he is losing his powers ? 15 months without a win and despite being placed well for a couple of stages found someone quicker?
It's all about the daily course and also what the riders objectives are.
Ganna and Demare are not after GC but simply after stage wins - so on some days there's simply no reason for them to try and stay in GC contention timewise, those in GC places now are either serious GC contenders or those who have not lost too much in the TT and what mountains have been climbed so far.
Ganna also would almost certainly not been allowed to go for his second stage win if Thomas had not have crashed out as his job would have been to supporting him and preventing anything untoward spoiling his day rather than being up in the breakaway hunting for a stage win.
Demare is simply a sprinter he won't work on stages he can't win GC, so he won't be up there on best aggregate times over the last six days he probably lost a huge amount going up Etna for instance.
I'm not familiar with some of the top ten GC names at the moment but I'd expect Kelderman, Nibali, Fuglsand, Kruijswijk and Majka to be there at the end if they get round possibly Pozzovivo and Konrad probably too with one or two dropping out and Yates getting in even though he's three or four minutes down already.
As I say it's more about the daily course and what your objectives are, until recent years the TdF used to basically set the first week for the sprinters, so it was unusual to see even the eventual Tour winners name not even being in the daily top ten GC riders until the second week of the Tour. Now however (and because flat sprint stages are mostly boring apart from the finishing few minutes) Tours have started to put in stages where GC's have to ride for fear of letting their rivals gain time on them of they don't and have to be aware of side winds and 'echlon's' (you've not met them yet!) and have to be more involved with the flatter stages too.
Sagan's powers are waning with age which is only natural but he is good enough to still win if things go to plan for him.
There's no Alaphilippe, premier, 'classic' one day type racers in the Tour (Mathews is his closet rival for that I would say) and he's been up there with the best sprinters over the years and the ones to watch in this race Gaviria has shown nothing, Viviani's form has fallen off a cliff and Demare usually beatable by Segan, there's no reason not to believe he is not capable even still of getting his debut Giro Tour win by some means or other, He certainly deserves one in his career.
You might find this of interest in how the sprinters were ranked last year by this cycle magazine -
As for Echelons, fist an explanation, second video the even happening in the 2016 World championship in Doha (I don't think the video titled lives up to its claim though - but it does shows you what does happen in real race situation).
And finally just for your information Paris - Roubaix (one of the monuments has been called off again and now cancelled this year due to coronavirus going up again in France and the new imposed lockdown there by the French government -
Posts : 2748 Join date : 2013-06-17 Age : 71 Location : Bolton Formerly Chew Moor
I must be getting keen i knew the Paris race was cancelled, Having to watch most of this later at night, just watched stage 7 and once again Demare had to much for Sagen, sure his time will come, totally understand your explanation on the GC standings thank you .
Will watch/read the links, Todays daft question?
I understand the top teams compete, and each team have 8 riders? I expected each team to have a GC rider and a sprinter then depending on the stage tactics dictate.
However some times i get confused because the commentators some times talk about Sprint teams and GC teams ? so do some teams only concentrate on one dicipline whilst other teams have contenders in both?
You have to remember the reason for some of these teams existence to understand their aims. Many of the Belgium, Dutch and Northern French teams have their roots in the classic one day races run generally on flat courses with a few sharp and steep hills, their sponsors come from around these parts too (I assume) and want to be associated with their victory's in the classics/monuments, so the simply don't need to have mountain specialist riders on their rosters but do want the Alaphilippe/Sagan type riders and the best sprinters and build their teams accordingly.
Spanish and Italian based teams tend to have mountains on their doorstep and therefore more naturally have riders who are better suited to the races they have in those country's and have produced some of the great names in mountain riders in there times.
Chuck in the Germans who true to form are very regimented and thorough but lack that spark of genius and other continental country's such as Switzerland, Portugal, Luxemburg, Poland and Ireland and you've really got the core of cycling that had been going on from before the first world war to about the mid 1980's when you started to get a few English speaking riders from Australia and the USA involved and with them a sort of birth of interest from a world wide audience for the first time.
This started to attract American cycling teams with the aim of winning the big prize the TdF and to build teams specifically for that purpose - Lance Armstrong - US Postal for instance.
In recent years Sky has thrown a huge amount of money to win the TdF year on year and random country's such as Kazakhstan (Astana) and Israel entering the sport too.
So you really have a bit of a hotchpotch of teams coming from different directions and priorities all joining together at the big Tours.
They all know that there's really only a handful of riders capable of winning Tours and they cost millions per year in wages, so for instance you build your squads around them - such as Ineos and Jumbo have - but the best one day team in the world Quick step who pay their big wages to the Alaphilippe's and whoever is the world's best sprinter at the time - and so can't carry the wages of Chris Froome or Bernal as well.
So you will get teams purely at Tours for GC and you will get other teams purely to win sprint or 'classic' type stages. Teams won't automatically carry a sprinter, a GC rider, a TT rider and so on with their 8 man squad for the Tours, they will pick the best team they have for the teams objectives they set themselves based on the squad they've picked for the season.
Most teams have a back up plan if something goes wrong with their main aim - for instance in the TdF when Bernal failed they targeted stage wins with Kwiatkowski winning one and Carapaz coming so close to others, in the Giro they got Ganna to ride for his victory when Thomas retired - but really not winning the Tour or even getting on the podium is an utter failure for Ineos, but at the same time Quick Step who never had ang GC hopes did have a marvellous TdF with Bennet and Alaphillipes stage wins and Bennet's green jersey.
Most teams however are somewhere in the middle of the worlds best sprint team and the worlds best (probably not now though) GC team Ineos and whose aims are probably away from the Tours themselves and more towards the day races but want their shirt on the TV at the Tours to please their sponsors and will have a top 10 GC contender or second/third place type sprinter in their teams for the Tours.
It isn't a given that you pick a team like you do at football - keeper, centre backs, wing backs, defending mids, attacking mids, winger and strikers - you could simply pick say star sprinter four others for his 'train' to lead him out a couple of big engines to get him to the peloton or breakaways if he has need to and an all rounder to cover the train riders or engine's depending on form/crashes during the race.
That's the beauty of Tours, everybody seems to want something different from them and there are several races within races going on in them at the same time, it's like a 'who's done it' you are never sure what's going to happen next - as you've been finding out yourself!
Posts : 2748 Join date : 2013-06-17 Age : 71 Location : Bolton Formerly Chew Moor
Cheers (again) it's like being on a crash course for cyclists lol, really appreciate your input, your early years explanation makes me understand how it evolved and i can relate to the era from Armstrong going forward so i can see now how it all fits and why the teams are structured as they are. So that explains quite a lot thanks.
All though i have not really followed cycling it automatically becomes a sport of interest, there seems to be a kind of link between athletes and cyclists, many of my running mates have also tried cycling, some are members of both codes, and of course the advent of the triathlon again brings us together, we also have members in a Tri club, my club actually organises a triathlon so i have seen the cyclists up close, Horwich each year holds a full day of races featuring both codes, i found out recently that Jason Kenny raced it as a junior.
I also used to do a race against Horwich Cyclist a course was set that had fast road bits and equal amount of cross country to even it out, interesting to say the least.
Aged 17 i raced in a cross country in Namur Belgium, and it struck me back then that Cycling was such a huge sport in Belgium it was advertised all over the place. So i guess i was always goig to be drawn in at some point. sorry i'm rambling on.
I guess the thing that connects track athletics to cycling (and swimming) is they are aerobic sports where you constantly are moving and can't 'rest' until you get to the end. Football, Boxing, cricket and everything else I can immediately think of have 'break' and rest periods built into them.
I watch all the other sports but it's the races within races, and teams and riders often having different aims to each other (whilst being in the same race/competition together) that sets cycling apart for me - that and all the twist and unexpected turns that take place - for instance just this morning we have this!
Giro d'Italia: Simon Yates out of race with Covid-19
Wonder how he caught that as he's been in a secure bubble from before the race started and what and how it might (will?) effect his team mates and other riders?
It's all just pure theatre to me with beautiful scenery often thrown in for free!
Posts : 2748 Join date : 2013-06-17 Age : 71 Location : Bolton Formerly Chew Moor
Yep i saw that this morning, was worried it would effect the race? i guess they somehow keep the riders isolated between stages ? you would think the whole team may have to quarantine. So he was tested and pulled out whilst the team are all negative such a fragile position to be in.
Been wondering why he hadn't figured strongly he sat at the back yesterday now we know why. Will be recording today's stage to watch late on. A match to watch today !!!!
Kruijswijk, the rider I tipped to finish second to Thomas had already tested positive and obviously his team have now pulled out to as did earlier Yates team after he tested positive before the rest day.
I was really surprised the TdF got through it all relatively unscathed and it makes me think if Italy which as a relatively lower infection rate has now two teams pull out what might happen in the Vuelta in Spain where their rate is considerably higher?
Posts : 2748 Join date : 2013-06-17 Age : 71 Location : Bolton Formerly Chew Moor
I would think both races might be in doubt, not sure if there are any rules that apply but can they continue if to many teams pull out?
The Vulta maybe lucky to start they are saying that the countries operate differently with Spain more local government involvement so harder to get acceptence to ride through differrent districts. shame really it's the world we are currently living in.
I would think the Giro will be completed as long as the teams, whoever are left, are up for it and the Italian government doesn't make them stop and I don't think the latter will unless things change dramatically in the next two weeks.
I think we will need to cross the Vuelta when we come to it but as long as the teams are up for it again and I'm sure they will - (if I want to be really cynical both the teams who dropped out had their team leaders test positive so really had nothing much to race for, for the remainder of the Giro but if they were winning the Giro and instead it was only a team member who had caught it, would they have still pulled out straight away, or raced on?) and there's probably contingency plans and alternate stages thought out if regions in Spain go into some sort of lockdowns.
Posts : 2748 Join date : 2013-06-17 Age : 71 Location : Bolton Formerly Chew Moor
Good points hope your right, because despite the positive tests, todays race was a cracker, They say cream always comes to the top and that was the case today, and the race leader showed real character today under extreme pressure, so maybe some new young cream lol
wessy wrote:Good points hope your right, because despite the positive tests, todays race was a cracker, They say cream always comes to the top and that was the case today, and the race leader showed real character today under extreme pressure, so maybe some new young cream lol
Don't pin your colours on Almeida too soon as we don't know what he's like in the big mountains as yet. True he did well on Etna but that was just a one off big mountain with non to come for days after. He has to do it when there are two or three mountains to climb on the same day and for two, three or more consecutive days thereafter.
I don't know if he can - lets hope so - but I do know Nibali, Kelderman, Majka, Fuglsang and Pozzovivo can and have done many times in the past.
I don't at this stage know who is going to win, Nibali is the last of my 'four to watch' still in the race and has constantly bettered the others I list in the Tours over the years but whether he's still got the hex over them or the years have caught up to him I don't know, neither do I know what the riders new to me like Almeida and Bilbao can do.
I do know now though that Almeida can TT and if he can hang on it the big mountains he must now be considered a serious threat to the old guard who are left in the race.
It would be good though if you've talent spotted again one for the future like you did for Hirschi at the TdF!
As you say all interesting and enjoyable themes within the race story itself.
Really pleased for Sagan to get a Giro Tour win, he's been the best cyclist in the last decade but sadly his star is on the wain now, time and tide and all that.
Hope he wins the 'green' jersey equivalent too come the end of the race though!
Hope he wins the 'green' jersey equivalent too come the end of the race though!
The Maglia Verde was traditionally awarded to the King of the Mountains in the Giro but they switched it to the points winner a few years back - presumably to put an end to the confusion.
Posts : 2748 Join date : 2013-06-17 Age : 71 Location : Bolton Formerly Chew Moor
Pretty impressve that Sagan didn't need to use his sprinting prowess, a true champion, I saw Almeda being interviewed and he himself was unsure if he had enough to see it through, so i am open minded has to his chances, however at one point today when Bilbao attacked he could easily have folded, instead he attacked with out any team mates to ensure he stayed in contention, he pulled back about 30 seconds closed the gap and finished 3rd extending his lead i thought that was quite a statement.
Nibali looks a real handful when he starts to mix it up, and i thought Pozzovivo showed what he can do after the puncture to get right back in the mix. It's all up for grabs.
Posts : 2748 Join date : 2013-06-17 Age : 71 Location : Bolton Formerly Chew Moor
Great double header today on Eurosport was wondering at first what was going on, when Alaphillipe was in the lead group and all those cobbles then i realised it was Flanders, that was a nasty accident happened a few times recently with motor bikes, also 3 went down in the Giro ? another nasty tumble.
A great finish in the tour of Flanders cat and mouse with the group closing and a dash for the line taken in a phot by Van der Poel and a great win for Hart in the Giro taking the stage for Ineos and moving to 4th in the GC.
My mate Almeide had to pull out all the stops to keep the jersey today at one stage he looked like it was all over, he may not win but he is one tough compettitor that's twice now he as shown great courage and endurance, i think the rest day will be of great benefit and give him a chance to recover.
I think we deserve to go back to this thread (returning to our visit on the ongoing Vuelta thread) as it seems clear now that Tao will finish on the podium tomorrow and at least in second place!
It's hard to know who is the better of the two of them TT wise, I'm led to believe it's Tao as he took loads out of Hindley on the second and longer TT but at the time Hindley was only really riding as a domestique for Kelderman and had no particular reason to bury himself on that stage whereas TGH had become nominal leader of Ineos with Thomas crashing out and so was riding for himself and no doubt in his mind a top ten GC place but never expecting it would end of being so high!
Fingers obviously crossed for Toa tomorrow!
Tao Geoghegan Hart wins stage 20 of the Giro d'Italia 2020 from Jai Hindley (Luca Bettini/AFP via Getty Images)
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