How is the Tory Government Doing?

Natasha Whittam wrote:

Whitesince63 wrote:It’s not just out of work benefits for the fat lazy cretins who will find any excuse not to work

I'm really tiring of your bigotry. Just because a small number of people on benefits are lazy doesn't mean everyone is a "fat lazy cretin". Many are on benefits because they are disabled or struggling with their physical or mental health. Some simply can't find a job that matches their skills.

And we all know your views on migrants and the LGBTQ+ community.

Try being nice to folk for a change, perhaps they wouldn't seem so scary.

Natasha is spot on and it’s far easier to be a Tory to jump on these people on benefits who get a pittance than jumping on the big arseholes taking the real money from tax payers etc.

Shame on you 63!

Whitesince63 wrote:Sluffy, I think your last paragraph sums it up perfectly in that the last 13 years hasn’t been good enough and is why Tory members and voters like me want serious change. You call it right wing but it’s nothing like right wing it’s basically a return to common sense and proper Conservatism. The left classify it as right wing to make people believe it is and whilst it’s certainly right of where we’ve been for the last 13 years, it’s nowhere near the policies of organisations supporting real far right policies like the National Front.

It’s a realisation that far too many people are living off the state and other peoples hard work. The only thing that will get this country moving is to increase our productivity which will be difficult, painful even but entirely necessary. It’s not just out of work benefits for the fat lazy cretins who will find any excuse not to work, or even those in work receiving benefits because employers have cottoned on to the fact that government will pay wages instead of them having to fund it fully. That leads to either owners who take too much profit or businesses that can’t afford to be businesses. 

It leads to high immigration to fill these low paid jobs instead of creating good, well paid quality jobs in new and growing industries which the government can’t invest in because it has no money from paying the idle to stay at home. As for universities, I accept they’ve always been left leaning but not to this extent with their cancel culture and infestation from the Chinese. Decent, experienced professors are being removed because they won’t commit to the barmy pronouns and such nonsense being inflicted on them by students who refuse to see both sides of any argument. It has to stop and I can only hope that Rishi can turn out to be the one that achieves that because for certain Labour under the human bollard certainly won’t.

Sorry I haven't replied sooner, I've been a bit busy today.

First of all fair play to you for replying and being reasonable in your response - fwiw I don't rate you as a looney like some off here clearly do, I just see you has a loyal Tory, with traditional Tory values who hasn't noticed that the ground beneath your feet has changed - hijacked in fact - by those in Tory clothing but who spout the more extremist Libertarian polices.

You've been taken in by 'groupthink' and the changing 'culture' of the party particularly under Johnson's administration, in turn leading to a MONOCULTURE at the top echelons of executive (Johnson, Cummings, Truss, Raab, Rishi, etc).

In simple terms Johnson surrounded himself with his mates, who all thought and acted the same way, set the standard for everyone to follow and believed they were superior to everyone else - and this showed in their actions and polices - and you as rank and file Tory voters simply accepted the leadership's direction without too much thought.

You over simplify when I talk of right wing extremist polices and are equating them to the National Front.  What you don't take into consideration is that policy formulation has got far more sophisticated than National Front's hay day of 50 years ago and instead of demonising on racial grounds now does so on 'elitism' - the 'plebs' (the unemployed, the immigrants, the unions, the left wing radicles, the cancel culture, the wokeism, the workshy, the single parent families, the disabled, etc, etc, etc) are the ones stopping wealth being created, so the policies are designed to cut them out of the equation - to feed the money to the very rich, for them to create wealth - hence Truss's mini budget car crash experiment.

No doubt you think I'm talking out of my bum - and those groups I list above ARE indeed a drain on wealth and society - but that's only a proportion of the problem - the latest figures seems to indicate that a roughly equal amount of money is lost to the country by 'the rich' evading paying taxes as the 'poor' commit in benefit fraud (in fact the most recent figures do show more is lost in benefit fraud but the was due to the 'Covid' crisis and the need to keep the economy going).

Figures on benefit fraud and tax evasion
https://fullfact.org/online/hmrc-tax-fraud-dwp-benefit-fraud/

In short the Tory party has shifted the blame upon the 'poor' and wish to reward the rich to compensate - that's basically what Johnson and Truss have been doing - whilst at the same time thinking and acting as though they were above the rules themselves - the lies, the trashing of the rules, their behaviour, their culture (parties during Covid for instance) the defence of their mates, when their mates should have been sacked (Owen Paterson, Chris Pincher).

In other words they they lost the balance between between the rich and the poor, those in need with those who have - and that's why you've always known there was always something wrong in the Tory party but you could never quite put your finger on it.

You simply always stood on the Tory coat tails and not realised that as they moved to the more extreme Libertarian right wing polices, their coat tails dragged you along with them without you even noticing it.



Groupthink is a psychological phenomenon that occurs within a group of people in which the desire for harmony or conformity in the group results in an irrational or dysfunctional decision-making outcome. Cohesiveness, or the desire for cohesiveness, in a group may produce a tendency among its members to agree at all costs.[1] This causes the group to minimize conflict and reach a consensus decision without critical evaluation.

A cultural norm codifies acceptable conduct in society; it serves as a guideline for behaviour, dress, language, and demeanour in a situation, which serves as a template for expectations in a social group. Accepting only a monoculture in a social group can bear risks, just as a single species can wither in the face of environmental change, for lack of functional responses to the change.[2] Thus in military culture, valour is counted a typical behaviour for an individual and duty, honour, and loyalty to the social group are counted as virtues or functional responses in the continuum of conflict. In the practice of religion, analogous attributes can be identified in a social group.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Groupthink

Monoculturalism is the policy or process of supporting, advocating, or allowing the expression of the culture of a single social or ethnic group.[1] It generally stems from beliefs within the dominant group that their cultural practices are superior to those of minority groups
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monoculturalism

Tories 2019 manifesto pledged to build 20,000 new prison places however like other vote winning pledges it was not (yet) delivered - and so this week as the prison population nears capacity, Crown Court judges have been ordered to delay sentencing hearings and not to jail rapists and burglars.

According to The Times.

Sluffy wrote:

Sorry I haven't replied sooner, I've been a bit busy today.

First of all fair play to you for replying and being reasonable in your response - fwiw I don't rate you as a looney like some off here clearly do, I just see you has a loyal Tory, with traditional Tory values who hasn't noticed that the ground beneath your feet has changed - hijacked in fact - by those in Tory clothing but who spout the more extremist Libertarian polices.

You've been taken in by 'groupthink' and the changing 'culture' of the party particularly under Johnson's administration, in turn leading to a MONOCULTURE at the top echelons of executive (Johnson, Cummings, Truss, Raab, Rishi, etc).

In simple terms Johnson surrounded himself with his mates, who all thought and acted the same way, set the standard for everyone to follow and believed they were superior to everyone else - and this showed in their actions and polices - and you as rank and file Tory voters simply accepted the leadership's direction without too much thought.

You over simplify when I talk of right wing extremist polices and are equating them to the National Front.  What you don't take into consideration is that policy formulation has got far more sophisticated than National Front's hay day of 50 years ago and instead of demonising on racial grounds now does so on 'elitism' - the 'plebs' (the unemployed, the immigrants, the unions, the left wing radicles, the cancel culture, the wokeism, the workshy, the single parent families, the disabled, etc, etc, etc) are the ones stopping wealth being created, so the policies are designed to cut them out of the equation - to feed the money to the very rich, for them to create wealth - hence Truss's mini budget car crash experiment.

No doubt you think I'm talking out of my bum - and those groups I list above ARE indeed a drain on wealth and society - but that's only a proportion of the problem - the latest figures seems to indicate that a roughly equal amount of money is lost to the country by 'the rich' evading paying taxes as the 'poor' commit in benefit fraud (in fact the most recent figures do show more is lost in benefit fraud but the was due to the 'Covid' crisis and the need to keep the economy going).

Figures on benefit fraud and tax evasion
https://fullfact.org/online/hmrc-tax-fraud-dwp-benefit-fraud/

In short the Tory party has shifted the blame upon the 'poor' and wish to reward the rich to compensate - that's basically what Johnson and Truss have been doing - whilst at the same time thinking and acting as though they were above the rules themselves - the lies, the trashing of the rules, their behaviour, their culture (parties during Covid for instance) the defence of their mates, when their mates should have been sacked (Owen Paterson, Chris Pincher).

In other words they they lost the balance between between the rich and the poor, those in need with those who have - and that's why you've always known there was always something wrong in the Tory party but you could never quite put your finger on it.

You simply always stood on the Tory coat tails and not realised that as they moved to the more extreme Libertarian right wing polices, their coat tails dragged you along with them without you even noticing it.



Groupthink is a psychological phenomenon that occurs within a group of people in which the desire for harmony or conformity in the group results in an irrational or dysfunctional decision-making outcome. Cohesiveness, or the desire for cohesiveness, in a group may produce a tendency among its members to agree at all costs.[1] This causes the group to minimize conflict and reach a consensus decision without critical evaluation.

A cultural norm codifies acceptable conduct in society; it serves as a guideline for behaviour, dress, language, and demeanour in a situation, which serves as a template for expectations in a social group. Accepting only a monoculture in a social group can bear risks, just as a single species can wither in the face of environmental change, for lack of functional responses to the change.[2] Thus in military culture, valour is counted a typical behaviour for an individual and duty, honour, and loyalty to the social group are counted as virtues or functional responses in the continuum of conflict. In the practice of religion, analogous attributes can be identified in a social group.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Groupthink

Monoculturalism is the policy or process of supporting, advocating, or allowing the expression of the culture of a single social or ethnic group.[1] It generally stems from beliefs within the dominant group that their cultural practices are superior to those of minority groups
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monoculturalism

Sluffy, I do wish that you would refrain from telling me what I think and where I’ve gone wrong. I don’t for one minute dispute what you say about Johnson and his cronies, in fact I’ve pointed out on here many times that I consider the lot of them, in fact the whole of z Parliament not to be fit to occupy those positions as MP’s. I don’t think I’m alone in that either as I’m sure the majority of the public have little or no faith in politicians generally.

The Tories fought the 2019 election on a set manifesto but we all know that the only game in town was Brexit and only Brexit gave them an 80 seat majority. Boris did take us out but with most of the appalling capitulation delivered by May but effectively did nothing with it afterwards. In fairness to Boris, the Covid situation completely derailed everything else and was eventually the final straw in his downfall. As you say, I am just a ground roots Tory with Tory values. Those haven’t changed despite your insinuation that I haven’t moved with the times. Work hard, spend only what you can afford and support those in need. Those beliefs encompass a multitude of elements including all of those you listed. Maybe I am just an old fart with outdated values but it’s who I am and I’m not likely to change.

Whitesince63 wrote:Sluffy, I do wish that you would refrain from telling me what I think and where I’ve gone wrong. I don’t for one minute dispute what you say about Johnson and his cronies, in fact I’ve pointed out on here many times that I consider the lot of them, in fact the whole of z Parliament not to be fit to occupy those positions as MP’s. I don’t think I’m alone in that either as I’m sure the majority of the public have little or no faith in politicians generally.

The Tories fought the 2019 election on a set manifesto but we all know that the only game in town was Brexit and only Brexit gave them an 80 seat majority. Boris did take us out but with most of the appalling capitulation delivered by May but effectively did nothing with it afterwards. In fairness to Boris, the Covid situation completely derailed everything else and was eventually the final straw in his downfall. As you say, I am just a ground roots Tory with Tory values. Those haven’t changed despite your insinuation that I haven’t moved with the times. Work hard, spend only what you can afford and support those in need. Those beliefs encompass a multitude of elements including all of those you listed. Maybe I am just an old fart with outdated values but it’s who I am and I’m not likely to change.

Thanks for your reply but you still can't grasp what it is that I am explaining.

We are all old farts, we are all stuck in our ways and we all still have the same values as we always had.

What has changed though is what we are fed, how we are influenced, how we are manipulated - all without being conscious of it most of the time.

The world we live in is dynamic and has changed and moved - but we are no longer of the generation and remain locked into the world we knew, the music we liked, the hairstyles we have, the clothes fashions we wear, the places we go on holiday to, even the food we eat.  We don't live on our phones, or know how all the new technology works, our kids think we are dinosaurs and out of touch - and of course we are in just the same ways as we saw our own parents living in their pasts and not understanding how a video works.

Politics, influence and manipulation techniques have similar progressed and moved on in our time, we judge the world based on what we thought we knew, we never thought a Prime Minister would lie, we never believed political aids (Dominic Cummings) could be so powerful over policy as to break the law and hold a press conference in 10 Downing Streets garden and lie to the county.

We (or rather you) fully believed in the policies of a Prime Minister candidate (Liz Truss) when they appeared to you to fit your old fashion values but in reality were really extremist views - you couldn't see that although you hadn't moved, the carpet that you were stood on had be gently dragged to the right - and you with it.

That's how it works.

The 'influencers' know that people don't really like change, so you/we are told it isn't change at all, just a different way of doing what you want us to do.

You can't see - or even grasp - that even though numerous governments under May, Boris, Truss and now Rishi have been crap, that isn't down to their polices but because they aren't good Conservative politicians.

You clearly feel there's something wrong but you view it as it being the people who are crap when the problem is that their policies have become more and more extreme - and hence why they too behave more and more extreme in their own behaviour.

You may not like them but Major, Haig and May were traditional Tory politicians playing with a straight back so to speak but Cameron, Johnson, Truss and Rishi are a new breed that don't play to the rules and push more and more extreme policies to remain in power.

I'm not signalling you out - there's thousands, millions even, who are just the same - we are to them just voting fodder - as long as we mark the ballot paper in the right box for them, they will tell us what we want to hear and deliver none of it but instead do what is necessary for them to retain power.

It's a game, it has always been a game but not many people see it for what it is, they view it as what they think it is based on their 1960's/70's values of how politicians should be behaving.

I'm not asking you to vote Labour but trying to explain to you why you can't see how the political world around you as everything else in life has, has changed too.

Sluffy wrote:

Thanks for your reply but you still can't grasp what it is that I am explaining.

We are all old farts, we are all stuck in our ways and we all still have the same values as we always had.

What has changed though is what we are fed, how we are influenced, how we are manipulated - all without being conscious of it most of the time.

The world we live in is dynamic and has changed and moved - but we are no longer of the generation and remain locked into the world we knew, the music we liked, the hairstyles we have, the clothes fashions we wear, the places we go on holiday to, even the food we eat.  We don't live on our phones, or know how all the new technology works, our kids think we are dinosaurs and out of touch - and of course we are in just the same ways as we saw our own parents living in their pasts and not understanding how a video works.

Politics, influence and manipulation techniques have similar progressed and moved on in our time, we judge the world based on what we thought we knew, we never thought a Prime Minister would lie, we never believed political aids (Dominic Cummings) could be so powerful over policy as to break the law and hold a press conference in 10 Downing Streets garden and lie to the county.

We (or rather you) fully believed in the policies of a Prime Minister candidate (Liz Truss) when they appeared to you to fit your old fashion values but in reality were really extremist views - you couldn't see that although you hadn't moved, the carpet that you were stood on had be gently dragged to the right - and you with it.

That's how it works.

The 'influencers' know that people don't really like change, so you/we are told it isn't change at all, just a different way of doing what you want us to do.

You can't see - or even grasp - that even though numerous governments under May, Boris, Truss and now Rishi have been crap, that isn't down to their polices but because they aren't good Conservative politicians.

You clearly feel there's something wrong but you view it as it being the people who are crap when the problem is that their policies have become more and more extreme - and hence why they too behave more and more extreme in their own behaviour.

You may not like them but Major, Haig and May were traditional Tory politicians playing with a straight back so to speak but Cameron, Johnson, Truss and Rishi are a new breed that don't play to the rules and push more and more extreme policies to remain in power.

I'm not signalling you out - there's thousands, millions even, who are just the same - we are to them just voting fodder - as long as we mark the ballot paper in the right box for them, they will tell us what we want to hear and deliver none of it but instead do what is necessary for them to retain power.

It's a game, it has always been a game but not many people see it for what it is, they view it as what they think it is based on their 1960's/70's values of how politicians should be behaving.

I'm not asking you to vote Labour but trying to explain to you why you can't see how the political world around you as everything else in life has, has changed too.

Sluffy I agree entirely with the first part of your post about the public being influenced, brainwashed even but you lost me completely with your insistence that it is I that have dragged the carpet under my feet. I have always stayed where I was and the carpet has been dragged to the left not the right. What seemed centre right views (my own) previously and I believe those of Truss, you now consider extreme right. 

It is you sadly who is missing this point. You’re right that my beliefs and standards have remained where they always were and frankly they always will. Of course things change, move on and it’s natural for the young to want to change things as we ourselves did but surely rather than let them make mistakes that will damage them later it’s surely better for us to at least try to protect them? If anyone seriously believes that the country is in a better place today than when we were young I’d heartily disagree but then that’s because I’m an old fart!!

Natasha Whittam wrote:

I'm really tiring of your bigotry. Just because a small number of people on benefits are lazy doesn't mean everyone is a "fat lazy cretin". Many are on benefits because they are disabled or struggling with their physical or mental health. Some simply can't find a job that matches their skills.

And we all know your views on migrants and the LGBTQ+ community.

Try being nice to folk for a change, perhaps they wouldn't seem so scary.

Bigotry Nat? A small number are lazy? Have you seen the latest stats since Covid, it’s millions? I fully accept some are on benefits due to health reasons and they should be supported but your point about them not being able to find a job that suits their skills is just ridiculous. If they are fit to work then they should work end of and certainly not liable to benefits which you, I and the working population pay for. 

My views on migrants, LBTQ+ are probably similar to the vast majority. If migrants want to come here, follow our laws and embrace our culture, including celebrating their own religion I have no problem as long as it doesn’t interfere with our own. The problem is that in many cases it does. Years ago our only experience of Middle East unrest was on the TV and news reports. It didn’t really affect us. Now it’s on our own streets and it very much does affect us and increasingly so.

If you want to keep living in your mythical multi culturalism is wonderful bubble then that’s your problem. Sadly despite every effort to embrace Muslim immigrants the vast majority refuse to engage and if the current problems in Gaza don’t illustrate that then I don’t know what will. That’s not my issue it’s theirs, it’s not me being racist it’s them unless like many you believe that racism only exists in White people?

Whitesince63 wrote:
Bigotry Nat? A small number are lazy? Have you seen the latest stats since Covid, it’s millions? I fully accept some are on benefits due to health reasons and they should be supported but your point about them not being able to find a job that suits their skills is just ridiculous. If they are fit to work then they should work end of and certainly not liable to benefits which you, I and the working population pay for. 

My views on migrants, LBTQ+ are probably similar to the vast majority. If migrants want to come here, follow our laws and embrace our culture, including celebrating their own religion I have no problem as long as it doesn’t interfere with our own. The problem is that in many cases it does. Years ago our only experience of Middle East unrest was on the TV and news reports. It didn’t really affect us. Now it’s on our own streets and it very much does affect us and increasingly so.

If you want to keep living in your mythical multi culturalism is wonderful bubble then that’s your problem. Sadly despite every effort to embrace Muslim immigrants the vast majority refuse to engage and if the current problems in Gaza don’t illustrate that then I don’t know what will. That’s not my issue it’s theirs, it’s not me being racist it’s them unless like many you believe that racism only exists in White people?

Don't worry about it. I'm an old fart, but with largely differing views to yours. Despite this, I'm still affected by our modern ways.
To the extent that I frequently take on the old fart persona, known the world over as 'Uncle INSERT NAME has gone off on one again'. I live with it. Although I sometimes pop into our local library and glue the pages of the Mail together.
I sit three tables down, peering over The Oldie, as some old bugger who still thinks it's fashionable to wear a cravat, vents his spleen at the supposed antics of the pupils of the attached High School.

Whitesince63 wrote:Sluffy I agree entirely with the first part of your post about the public being influenced, brainwashed even but you lost me completely with your insistence that it is I that have dragged the carpet under my feet. I have always stayed where I was and the carpet has been dragged to the left not the right. What seemed centre right views (my own) previously and I believe those of Truss, you now consider extreme right. 

It is you sadly who is missing this point. You’re right that my beliefs and standards have remained where they always were and frankly they always will. Of course things change, move on and it’s natural for the young to want to change things as we ourselves did but surely rather than let them make mistakes that will damage them later it’s surely better for us to at least try to protect them? If anyone seriously believes that the country is in a better place today than when we were young I’d heartily disagree but then that’s because I’m an old fart!!

You're hard work mate.

No I didn't say YOU dragged the carpet under your own feet - what does that even mean?  Surely you must have thought that can't be right, I must have misunderstood something here?

Obviously not!

What I'm saying is that you are fixed in your views - you want immigration stopped for example - you hold a firm view on that and no doubt agreed with the policies as they where under Cameron at the start of the 13 years of Tory rule.

Since then the Tory government from Johnson onwards has move substantially to the right in policy and little by little you've been dragged along to believe firstly that the French should pull their finger in respect of the Sangatte Refugee camp, next paying the French government to stop the refugees heading to the UK, next the Royal Navy, to 'push' them back at sea, then to fly them to Rwanda, and the current put them in prison ships....

Can't you understand that whilst you have stayed the same, held the same view as you always had, you've been pulled along without you even realising it to believe in more and more extreme right-wing government policies?

You hold the same views but you've become more and more extreme in your views in agreeing with the more and more extreme right wing policies the government proposes.

It's a bit like the story how you put a frog in a pan of cold water and gently heart it up.  Apparently if you do it slow enough the frog adapts to the gradual rise in temperature without jumping out, until it is boiled to death.

It just thinks he's in a in a pan of water all of the time and doesn't realise that his world around him has changed slowly, slowly around him - and that he hasn't noticed the change and accepts that everything is as normal as usual, when clearly his world has got hotter and hotter and in your world you believe in greater and greater (right wing) extremist polices!

(Apparently sensible frogs will jump out eventually!)

As for the next generation wanting and changing the world, that is normal and how mankind moves forward for good or bad.

Did you always do what your mam and dad told you to do?

So why would you think our kids would do everything we told them to do?

It's the way of the world, if our generation knows all the answers then why is the world in the mess it is?

(for the record I've not boiled any frogs!).

Sluffy, you’re right I didn’t phrase the carpet bit right but my point is that I have never changed views on certain points which I believe are essentials. Where did say I wanted immigration stopped? You see once again you’re making things up that I’ve never said. I want ILLEGAL immigration stopped but I think any sane person would agree with that. Our population is ageing and we need youth to fill the jobs, create the wealth and pay the taxes. If that has to be through immigration then so be it but it needs firstly to be legal and secondly to be for jobs that doesn’t force down wages and support businesses that aren’t really solvent or enable owners to run off with the cash whilst the taxpayer supports them.

How you can even attempt to claim that the Tories have moved to the right amuses me. Right of what? Do you mean the weak, liberal, garbage the last few Tory PMs have foisted on the country? The ones that give us the highest taxes for decades or pours more money down the NHS hole or allows potential criminals into our country without vetting them, or presides over the poorest productivity in our lifetime. Things like that you mean? Are you serious? That’s not Conservative that’s Liberal/Labour and it’s time that thr true Conservatives regained the party and implemented proper, prudent policies. Of course I accept the young will forge their own path, that always happens but sometimes you just have to pull them back to prevent them doing something detrimental. It’s called parental guidance.

Whitesince63 wrote:Sluffy, you’re right I didn’t phrase the carpet bit right but my point is that I have never changed views on certain points which I believe are essentials. Where did say I wanted immigration stopped? You see once again you’re making things up that I’ve never said. I want ILLEGAL immigration stopped but I think any sane person would agree with that. Our population is ageing and we need youth to fill the jobs, create the wealth and pay the taxes. If that has to be through immigration then so be it but it needs firstly to be legal and secondly to be for jobs that doesn’t force down wages and support businesses that aren’t really solvent or enable owners to run off with the cash whilst the taxpayer supports them.

How you can even attempt to claim that the Tories have moved to the right amuses me. Right of what? Do you mean the weak, liberal, garbage the last few Tory PMs have foisted on the country? The ones that give us the highest taxes for decades or pours more money down the NHS hole or allows potential criminals into our country without vetting them, or presides over the poorest productivity in our lifetime. Things like that you mean? Are you serious? That’s not Conservative that’s Liberal/Labour and it’s time that the true Conservatives regained the party and implemented proper, prudent policies. Of course I accept the young will forge their own path, that always happens but sometimes you just have to pull them back to prevent them doing something detrimental. It’s called parental guidance.

Jesus Christ, are you really that thick???

I've talked about the refugee camp and Sangatte, the payment by the government to the French to stop the boats coming, the Royal Navy pushing the boats back, the Rwanda attempt, the prison boat attempt, ALL OF THEM RELATE SOLELY TO ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION - didn't you even realise this???

I'm clearly talking about ILLEGAL immigration and quite frankly if you do know anything about the subject you should have obviously known that...

There's clearly no point attempting to try and explain anything to you as you simply refuse to see it - Truss caused a financial catastrophe to the economy with her extreme right wing Libertarian policy - and you still believe that wasn't  anything other than just good old traditional Toryism in action???

And God help us all if you would have the younger generation listing to you telling them not to do anything about global warming because no other country seems bothered much about it!

Sluffy wrote:

Whitesince63 wrote:Sluffy, you’re right I didn’t phrase the carpet bit right but my point is that I have never changed views on certain points which I believe are essentials. Where did say I wanted immigration stopped? You see once again you’re making things up that I’ve never said. I want ILLEGAL immigration stopped but I think any sane person would agree with that. Our population is ageing and we need youth to fill the jobs, create the wealth and pay the taxes. If that has to be through immigration then so be it but it needs firstly to be legal and secondly to be for jobs that doesn’t force down wages and support businesses that aren’t really solvent or enable owners to run off with the cash whilst the taxpayer supports them.

How you can even attempt to claim that the Tories have moved to the right amuses me. Right of what? Do you mean the weak, liberal, garbage the last few Tory PMs have foisted on the country? The ones that give us the highest taxes for decades or pours more money down the NHS hole or allows potential criminals into our country without vetting them, or presides over the poorest productivity in our lifetime. Things like that you mean? Are you serious? That’s not Conservative that’s Liberal/Labour and it’s time that the true Conservatives regained the party and implemented proper, prudent policies. Of course I accept the young will forge their own path, that always happens but sometimes you just have to pull them back to prevent them doing something detrimental. It’s called parental guidance.

Jesus Christ, are you really that thick???

A bit harsh that to be fair Sluffy.

karlypants wrote:

Sluffy wrote:

Whitesince63 wrote:Sluffy, you’re right I didn’t phrase the carpet bit right but my point is that I have never changed views on certain points which I believe are essentials. Where did say I wanted immigration stopped? You see once again you’re making things up that I’ve never said. I want ILLEGAL immigration stopped but I think any sane person would agree with that. Our population is ageing and we need youth to fill the jobs, create the wealth and pay the taxes. If that has to be through immigration then so be it but it needs firstly to be legal and secondly to be for jobs that doesn’t force down wages and support businesses that aren’t really solvent or enable owners to run off with the cash whilst the taxpayer supports them.

How you can even attempt to claim that the Tories have moved to the right amuses me. Right of what? Do you mean the weak, liberal, garbage the last few Tory PMs have foisted on the country? The ones that give us the highest taxes for decades or pours more money down the NHS hole or allows potential criminals into our country without vetting them, or presides over the poorest productivity in our lifetime. Things like that you mean? Are you serious? That’s not Conservative that’s Liberal/Labour and it’s time that the true Conservatives regained the party and implemented proper, prudent policies. Of course I accept the young will forge their own path, that always happens but sometimes you just have to pull them back to prevent them doing something detrimental. It’s called parental guidance.

Jesus Christ, are you really that thick???

A bit harsh that to be fair Sluffy.

Totally disagree.

He's accused me of making things up he's never said - I HAVEN'T!!!

I've been talking EXCLUSIVELY about ILLEGAL immigration and gave not ONE, not TWO, not THREE, not FOUR, not even FIVE, but SIX examples of government policy THAT ONLY APPLY TO ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS who have entered this country (or were intending to do so).

God, if he hasn't realised that then he's not got a clue about what his own government is doing let alone understanding how much to the right wing their polices have swung!

He clearly doesn't seem to understand the basic fact that the policies are targeted specifically at ILLEGAL immigrants, let alone how extreme they have developed over the course of 13 years of Conservative government.

Surely this should be about healthy debate without resorting to insults. There is no forum without debate, disagreement, camaraderie and a bit of piss-taking but it all too quickly turns to name calling. Just try to be civil.

finlaymcdanger wrote:Surely this should be about healthy debate without resorting to insults. There is no forum without debate, disagreement, camaraderie and a bit of piss-taking but it all too quickly turns to name calling. Just try to be civil.

We'll have to get 63 back in bed first.

finlaymcdanger wrote:Surely this should be about healthy debate without resorting to insults. There is no forum without debate, disagreement, camaraderie and a bit of piss-taking but it all too quickly turns to name calling. Just try to be civil.

Deary me, there's some snowflakes about these days!

My mother used to call me 'thick' when I did something silly or stupid, and I'm not talking about when I was just a child.

It's not unknown to call my mates, and they to call me, a 'thick' bastard when one or other of us has acted numb!

It's more an exclamation as to 'I can't believe you've just done that' - rather than a term of abuse or an insult!

I know all the swearwords I need to know if I ever wanted to insult or abuse someone - which I don't.

The irony would you believe was that I deliberately didn't use my 'catch phrase' of - EH ??? - which I automatically would have done because YOU asked me to stop doing so!!!

I certainly don't think W63 will have taken any offence at me calling him thick, because firstly he was being so, and secondly and more importantly he doesn't take the internet seriously as you clearly seem to do - at least on here.

I don't know if it's a generational thing, or we come from different class backgrounds, or inhabit different social groupings or whatever it is but you've never seemed to have ever been in tune with me, and no doubt I'm not in tune with you either.

I'm pretty basic and honest, I don't see much point being otherwise.  Maybe I'm to blunt and straight forward for your taste perhaps, I don't know, but you seem to see me as someone that I'm not.

Anyway...

W63 if you feel I've abused or insulted you then I'm very sorry, that was never my intention.

I'll go back to using EH??? in future, it may offend Fin but no one else seems to see it as being insulting or abusive to them.

Right, is that ok with everyone?

Eh???

Does seem much less offensive than are you really that thick

Sluffy - I think you are taking every opinion that differs from your own as a personal attack and they're not - it's just people expressing their varied opinions in the hope of having a grown-up discussion in a polite manner, acknowledging the differences of opinion but in a respectful or light-hearted way.
Like you, I don't get where some folk are coming from but I'm willing to try to understand without resorting to aggression. I do hope you are OK because it's getting to the point where I'm starting to worry that your occasional light-heartedness is being subsumed by something else - as you come across as being angry a lot of the time.
Life is difficult for all of us at times - in my case through an adult child who has permanent brain damage - however it's important to recognise what is happening and put it in perspective and I just hope that you can find the space and time to do that so that you are able to lighten up and appreciate the good stuff.

BoltonTillIDie wrote:Eh???

Does seem much less offensive than are you really that thick

Eh??? - is NOT OFFENSIVE.

No one is saying it is...

Fin seems to see it as an example that my 'tone' of writing is 'antagonistic', 'confrontational' and 'dramatic'...

I just see it as shorthand for 'pardon, what the hell are you talking about'.

So trying to not offend Fin's sensibilities I used 'Are you really that thick', instead.

Are you 'thick'? - is being seen as 'insulting' and or abusive

I have used the phrase for over 60 years without anyone in that time ever having any issue with it - because they can clearly see my point that they HAVE  said or done something silly or stupid, which they immediate acknowledge and usually have a laugh at themselves for being so silly!

As I've said above it is simply an exclamation akin to EH??? - or in other words what the fuck are you on about/I can't believe you've just said/done that / what you are saying makes no sense / do you understand what you've just said, or words to that effect.

Nuts is supposed to be a forum is it not?  It is focus based of BWFC but also a place to discuss, chat, argue, have fun and whatever else you care to do providing that it is legal.

This place has turned into an unpleasant site to visit in recent years due to a few people having their own agendas and their own personal hang ups.

I've listed out the 'famous five' above and have attempted in the best way I know how to, to ask them nicely to take their hatred and obsessions elsewhere, or move on from them and stay here.

For troubling myself to take the hatred and toxicity away from the site I have in many people's eyes, seem to have become the problem and not the solution as was my intent.

It's now got to the ridiculous stage where completely harmless phrases and sayings (Eh??? Are you really that thick?) are taken as highly insensitive, hurtful and aggressive (would anybody be jumping in, in advance as Karly, Fin and now BTID have by involving themselves on behalf of the intended recipient of the phrase who has even commented on it yet?)

Would they similarly jump in if some other member of Nuts other than me used the same phrase...?

I very much doubt it!

What exactly do people want of me?

I'm more than happy to give up modding, I've made an open invite to anyone to step up and take on this (thankless) task.

If the consensus is you want a site of fake news, mutual hatred of things like the Tory Party or Ken Anderson, fake accounts from the same person holding arguments with himself and ganging up on genuine posters just for his own amusement, or obsessions on Brexit or that they called Ken a cunt on ww - then by all means have it and I'll simply just fade away from here and leave you all to it.

Christ I called someone thick because, wait for it..... he WAS being thick - the only thing I was talking about was exactly on (and could only be about) ILLEGAL immigrants - and which I gave SIX examples of the governments policies ON ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS!!!

Christ almighty if you really want me to go just say so, otherwise ffs grow up and stop acting like snowflakes.

If you don't like me - and it seems that some don't - then hard lines I don't care - listen to what I say - that's the important part of posting on a forum, not whether you like me or not.

You don't judge the merits of what is being said because of who is saying it, you judge it on the content, merit and accuracy of what they are saying.

Do any of you even realise that nobody has discussed the issue of how and why the politics of this country has shifted towards right wing extremism, or how sensible and genuine people, without realising it, come to support such extreme policies but all of you have jumped on my back because I told someone he was thick because he didn't even understand the basic tenet of the policies he was defending!!!

Christ Almighty, you're more obsessed about if some random old guy on the internet's opening comment is insulting (it wasn't) and couldn't care less about the direction this country (and the world) is heading.

God help you all, there's a war in Ukraine, there's a war in Israel, the USA government can't pass laws because the Republican nutjobs can't agree on a speaker and all you care about is me posting EH??? or 'Stop being so thick'!!!

You all need to give your heads a shake, it's the real world that matters not what someone you don't like said on the internet...

wanderlust wrote:Sluffy - I think you are taking every opinion that differs from your own as a personal attack and they're not - it's just people expressing their varied opinions in the hope of having a grown-up discussion in a polite manner, acknowledging the differences of opinion but in a respectful or light-hearted way.
Like you, I don't get where some folk are coming from but I'm willing to try to understand without resorting to aggression. I do hope you are OK because it's getting to the point where I'm starting to worry that your occasional light-heartedness is being subsumed by something else - as you come across as being angry a lot of the time.
Life is difficult for all of us at times - in my case through an adult child who has permanent brain damage - however it's important to recognise what is happening and put it in perspective and I just hope that you can find the space and time to do that so that you are able to lighten up and appreciate the good stuff.

Hahahaha!!!

Yes I'm having a breakdown thinking of jumping off Blackpool Tower because some people don't seem to like me on the internet...

You do have me in stitches.

No I'm not going mad, no matter how you would like to paint me and I couldn't care less if Fin or anybody else has got their knickers in a twist because I called someone who was being thick, "thick"!

It must be draining of you to have a loved one ill, but that doesn't excuse your behaviour or lies on here, I would have thought coming on to sites like this would be some sort of a temporary break from reality and not a place to be a knob like you have been.

But each to their own.

Thank you for your faux concern over me, I'm sure it is more aimed at the audience than for me.

And it's interesting to know that you are willing to learn without resorting to aggression, I must have completely misunderstood your intentions all those many times you called me a wanker with numerous mental health issues!

Anyway you've got a real life family problem that must have been taken a considerable emotional toll of you over the years and effected your own mental health wellbeing.

I don't envy you that.

Other than that, have a nice day.