Leeds 1-5 Bolton

Is that a promise?

luckyPeterpiper wrote:Look, I don't blame Dougie for every bad thing that ever happens.

What I do blame him for is the way he has failed to accept that he made mistakes for the largest part of this season and that his system didn't work. He changed it and still didn't admit he;d been wrong to begin with. We can't start our season in February every year. 

Dougie arrived eighteen months ago, we didn't hit any sort of form until three or four months into his time with us. Back then I was patient, he took over a real mess and the players needed time to get used to him or so I thought. When we went on the run it looked as if he had found the way forward and I lauded him as did many others. 

But then this term the same thing has happened. For months he's played about with systems and tactics, made incomprehensible team selections and insane substitutions and signally failed to get the best out of our players at all while depending on short term loans to get out of a relegation battle we should never have been in. 

For that reason I believe he is the wrong man for the job and we need to make a change in the summer as a matter of urgency. I give him full credit for the last three matches where he has undeniably got it right but after so long it's too little too late; at least for me.

He's come out and taken the blame and responsibility for the struggles, as any manager should.

Natasha Whittam wrote:At the end of the day it's quite simple for Dougie now - the team have proven which formation gets the best out of them, it's up to the manager to bring in players to suit this formation in the Summer.

If come August we're back playing Beckford upfront on his own I'll be off to Chorley on a more permanent basis.

I completely agree with that. Considering he's only 40 he's still learning as a manager, I'd guess he'd say he's learnt more this year than any other.

bwfc1874 wrote:

Natasha Whittam wrote:At the end of the day it's quite simple for Dougie now - the team have proven which formation gets the best out of them, it's up to the manager to bring in players to suit this formation in the Summer.

If come August we're back playing Beckford upfront on his own I'll be off to Chorley on a more permanent basis.

I completely agree with that. Considering he's only 40 he's still learning as a manager, I'd guess he'd say he's learnt more this year than any other.

I hope you're right, as I hope Hipster is right too. I don't want a BWFC manager to fail ever but with DF I think he already has and enough to be justifiably dismissed. 

Given that seems incredibly unlikely to happen I shall cross my fingers and hope he succeeds next season.

If I was Dougie I'd be looking to sell CYL in summer to fund a move for the Juke, I think Boro would sell but every goal he scores puts his price up. If Graham can kick on and score a few before the end of the season they'll hopefully look to sign him permanently which would help us.

So there are 2 points being made?
1) Dougie made a mistake by not playing 2 "strikers" from the beginning of the season and then when he did, didn't apologise for his "error"? 
So why is it that when he landed Mason and Juke he said "I've finally got the players I need to play this system". Are you saying he should have done it earlier and would have had the same success with different players? If so, that's pure speculation from people who don't get to see the players week in, week out.
2) Recent improvements are dependent on players that don't belong to us. True, but our own players were given a shot and came up short, so I don't see any realistic alternative. 
And we know there's going to be a huge reshuffle in the summer anyway, so what's wrong with an interim plan to keep us up whilst the manager gets on with the job in hand i.e. offloading and replacing the high earners and developing youth players to keep costs down?

It would be great to buy the players we want but we can't so we just need to accept it and move on.
Dougie does come across as a bloody-minded individual but that's a characteristic of a lot of successful managers. If he keeps us up which is looking increasingly likely and ideally gets us into a position where he feels comfortable enough to risk/bring on a few youngsters before the season is out, he will have done enough for me to justify being given a shot at next season.
I'd be comfortable with him handling the summer transfers as I think he's capable of getting the best deals possible within the budget. 
If he achieves all this we should be suspending judgment until 10 weeks into next season as it is likely to be a considerably different team.

wanderlust wrote:So there are 2 points being made?
1) Dougie made a mistake by not playing 2 "strikers" from the beginning of the season and then when he did, didn't apologise for his "error"? 
So why is it that when he landed Mason and Juke he said "I've finally got the players I need to play this system". Are you saying he should have done it earlier and would have had the same success with different players? If so, that's pure speculation from people who don't get to see the players week in, week out.
2) Recent improvements are dependent on players that don't belong to us. True, but our own players were given a shot and came up short, so I don't see any realistic alternative. 
And we know there's going to be a huge reshuffle in the summer anyway, so what's wrong with an interim plan to keep us up whilst the manager gets on with the job in hand i.e. offloading and replacing the high earners and developing youth players to keep costs down?

It would be great to buy the players we want but we can't so we just need to accept it and move on.
Dougie does come across as a bloody-minded individual but that's a characteristic of a lot of successful managers. If he keeps us up which is looking increasingly likely and ideally gets us into a position where he feels comfortable enough to risk/bring on a few youngsters before the season is out, he will have done enough for me to justify being given a shot at next season.
I'd be comfortable with him handling the summer transfers as I think he's capable of getting the best deals possible within the budget. 
If he achieves all this we should be suspending judgment until 10 weeks into next season as it is likely to be a considerably different team.

Morning lusty, a well made and articulate post as always but I want to take issue with it just a little on point 1.

The two up front system could indeed have been tried earlier this season. At one point we had Cravies, Beckford AND N'gog all here and all fit. It is pure speculation as to whether or not they could have done well in that setup but only because even those who DO watch us play week in week out never saw it happen because Dougie refused to try it. In fact he kept faith with his own "system" long after it was clear to even the most disinterested observer that it was failing. He branded 4-4-2 old fashioned yet now he uses a version of it and look what results it brings. I don't say the formation has done that by itself but the mindset and setup we are using now could and should have been employed much earlier with players that were already at Dougie's disposal. 

True it might not have worked but his system could hardly be called a roaring success could it? 

On the transfer front I fully agree, he has a lousy hand but the fact remains he can't keep relying on loan players to get us out of jams we should never have been in in the first place. I hope he can turn this around and show us a better club and setup next term but I'd be lying if I said I believe he's capable of that or that I think he deserves to keep his job come the summer. He will of course and I'll do my best to get behind him but he's going to have to show something worth getting behind rather than another start like we had this season.

Out of interest, how many people think that if we'd started the season with Juke and Mason on the books, we'd have generally played 4-4-2 from the start?

Don't forget, in Beckford, we're talking about a player that Dougie signed himself. Not Coyle. Not Megson. Freedman brought him to Bolton, and probably not for the sort of money most clubs in this division can afford to shell out for fun. And here he is, 9 months later saying he hadn't previously had the right balance of players to play the formation he wanted.

doffcocker wrote:Out of interest, how many people think that if we'd started the season with Juke and Mason on the books, we'd have generally played 4-4-2 from the start?

Don't forget, in Beckford, we're talking about a player that Dougie signed himself. Not Coyle. Not Megson. Freedman brought him to Bolton, and probably not for the sort of money most clubs in this division can afford to shell out for fun. And here he is, 9 months later saying he hadn't previously had the right balance of players to play the formation he wanted.

To be fair I've always said Beckford was a fair shout by Freedman - he's scored goals pretty much wherever he's gone so his signing came with less risk than most. And let's be honest, he's spent most of the season in a defensive formation playing the lone striker.

If we'd started the season playing 4-4-2 with Beckford and Craig Davies we'd have challenged the play-off contenders.

doffcocker wrote:Out of interest, how many people think that if we'd started the season with Juke and Mason on the books, we'd have generally played 4-4-2 from the start?

Don't forget, in Beckford, we're talking about a player that Dougie signed himself. Not Coyle. Not Megson. Freedman brought him to Bolton, and probably not for the sort of money most clubs in this division can afford to shell out for fun. And here he is, 9 months later saying he hadn't previously had the right balance of players to play the formation he wanted.

I don't think 2 strikers like Juke and Mason were signed in the summer because Dougie had no intention of playing 442 and to be fair with the quality many assume Eagles and Lee have you can see why he'd prefer to play a formation that should suit them. Two of our supposed best players are wingers but they haven't delivered. 

Now he's changed tactics he's recruited accordingly. I don't share Natasha's view that we'd be in the play offs with Cravies and Beckford up front from the start, Davies has struggled for fitness anyway this season so I doubt he'd have been fit every week, so assuming that would have been true Beckford and N'gog would have played. As I've said before I don't think that would have been particularly successful.

I think his plans completely changed since the start of the season anyway (or at least it should have). That's where I think he's made a mistake, but the fact he's willing to change it bodes well for the future.