Leeds 1-5 Bolton

doffcocker wrote:

Natasha Whittam wrote:

doffcocker wrote:I haven't seen the game but today was the first time all season that I've seen the teamsheet and not been disappointed/infuriated.

My only complaint of the day (and it's a big one) is hearing Freedman on GMR say "it's been coming".
It's like he thinks this is all part of the same plan that put him possibly on the edge of being sacked only a few weeks ago. It's also annoying that he thinks we had been playing well long before the Watford match, because we hadn't.
He's made some crucial alterations that people are deluding themselves if they think he couldn't have made sooner.

Top post.

I bet Freedman is sat at home right now with a fat cigar between his lips telling his wife "...I love it when a plan comes together".

It's as if he's been in total control this whole time and the Watford game was always earmarked as the day we started to play.

Dougie is still a toss manager who has stumbled across this formation through pure luck - remember he preferred Pratley to Danns FFS!

But, ultimately, it will all count for nothing. Half the players who started today won't even be here next season, so whoopee do Dougie - you won a few games when it didn't really matter.

Spot on Natasha.

I can see what's gonna happen. We'll go on a decent run between now and the end of the season, everybody will be besotted with Dougie all over again, he'll stay for another season, where it will again take him until February to realise his beloved 4-2-1-2-1 or whatever is a load of nonsense.

Personally I could really get used to this old-fashioned 4-4-2 lark.

  This ^^^        

Report: Leeds 1-5 Bolton

IN BRIEF

Bolton Wanderers turned in a five star performance at Elland Road, cruising beyond Leeds United to register their third consecutive victory.

Goals either side of half time from front two Joe Mason and Lukas Jutkiewicz got the ball rolling, before Zat Knight was the unlikely scorer of a third.

Mark Davies added a fourth before sub Andre Moritz crashed home a late fifth in what was a thoroughly convincing display.

TEAM NEWS

Freedman named the exact same matchday squad following the previous weekend’s 4-0 victory over Blackburn Rovers.

Despite a return to training, there was no place on the Bolton bench for Elland Road favourite Jermaine Beckford.

The Leeds team featured Stephen Warnock, a popular figure during his three-month loan spell with Wanderers last season.

FIRST HALF

Bolton started brightly, with Mark Davies cutting in off the left flank before dragging a low shot wide of the near post.

The early tempo was relentless. The home side enjoyed significant periods of pressure, but it was Bolton who looked more potent in the final third.

On 13 minutes Mason latched onto a ball in the right channel, before crossing for Jutkiewicz who failed to make contact.

Leeds responded with a looping Luke Murphy shot from distance, with a backpedalling Adam Bogdan relieved to see the ball sail narrowly over the bar.

Both sides showed plenty of endeavour, but as the half wore on goal-scoring chances were at a premium.

Neil Danns sent a shot straight down the throat of Jack Butland after a clever knock down from Jutkiewicz before Lee Peltier’s tame effort was easily gobbled up by Bogdan.

But just as it seemed the half was to end goalless, Mason put paid to that.

Danns smuggled the ball in behind an awry Leeds defence before Mason, who in acres of space, kept cool to finish beyond the onrushing Butland.

HALF TIME

The second period started in the best possible fashion, as Wanderers doubled their lead.

A seemingly routine set piece was clipped into the penalty area by Jay Spearing, and with the Leeds rearguard once again static, Jutkiewicz needn’t break stride before planting a header into the far corner.

Just as the travelling 1,000 plus Bolton fans had finished celebrating that second, a third goal arrived via an unexpected source.

Yet another set piece proved the undoing of the home side. A flighted ball into the area somehow made its way to the feet of Knight at the back post, who then stretched out a big size 12 to poke home beyond Butland.

Leeds boss Brian McDermott responded with a double substitution, introducing Alex Mowatt and beanpole striker Matt Smith.

The tide suddenly turned and it was all hands to the pump for Bolton, as Austin’s pile-driver from distance was fisted away by Bogdan.

Liam Trotter was introduced in place of Mason in an attempt to sure things up.

Leeds continued to press forward, but were once again caught out with a slick attacking move as Bolton added a fourth.

Jutkiewicz burst into the left channel, before delivering a delicious cross onto to which Mark Davies was able to unorthodoxly direct the ball into the net via his head.

Bolton were in complete control and sub Moritz smacked home a fifth off the underside of the bar on 88 minutes.

In stoppage time Smith did stoop to head home for the host, but ultimately it would not take the gloss off what was a memorable afternoon for Wanderers.

FULL TIME

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Freedman - Good in both boxes

Dougie Freedman says his team were clinical in both boxes following a convincing 5-1 victory over Leeds United at Elland Road.

Wanderers had taken the lead on the stroke of half time through Joe Mason, with Lukas Jutkiewicz, Zat Knight, Mark Davies and Andre Moritz all notching after the restart to secure an impressive win in West Yorkshire.

Despite the hosts snatching a consolation late on through Matt Smith, the manager was pleased with the effort of his side and paid tribute to their professionalism following the final whistle.

“It was a fantastic professional performance,” he said. “I felt we were calm in possession and controlled the midfield, but when we had to defend we did that really well too.

“You could see though when we got into the opposition’s box we were very spatially aware and we proved how ruthless we could be and that was shown in the result itself.

“People who have watched us over the last ten to twelve games will have seen that we have been putting the performances in, and now the results are starting to go with the performances it is very pleasing to see.

“It’s a great result, but as with previous games during the season we will try and remain calm, even though we have secured a fantastic result away against a very good Leeds side.”

He continued: “You can’t come to Elland Road and play a team with a manager like Brian McDermott and not work hard, and we did that today but it was a very professional display from everybody involved.

“Brian is an excellent manager with a very talented team, but we outplayed them today and got a result that was thoroughly deserved.”

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The shine has just been taken off the victory for me. I'm up in Stirling at the minute and just watched Scotsport-- Raith Rovers against St. Johnstone. The game was nothing to watch- but guess who was the post match pundit? Yes- Owen Coyle spouting about it.
Same crap he used to come out with when he was at the Reebok.
He's obviously trying to get a job up there. Probably Stenhousemuir or Montrose- about his level!

luckyPeterpiper wrote:I think we all agree that loan players are not useful when it comes to building a team for the longer term. 

All of us except Dougie that is. Sadly I fear Nat and Doff are dead right, last season was very much like this and next will be another carbon copy if DF is still in charge. It's not good enough, not in the long run despite three terrific performances on the bounce. 

Dougie should still definitely go in my opinion, preferably as soon as this season ends.

You're right LPP loan players aren't going to build our long term future, but realistically what choice did he have in January? You can't put our financial problems down to Dougie, he had to do something to improve the team and it's looking as if he did an excellent job with his recruits. As far as long term future goes I've said it a million times, he's done more to plan towards that than any previous manager it's undeniable, the fact that he can't go and sign Juke and Mason in January is in no way his fault.

Also this assertion that he can only get a side playing after January is seriously pathetic by the way, he's had one full season in charge and you think a judgement like that can be justified? You're clutching at straws I'm afraid.

bwfc1874 wrote:

luckyPeterpiper wrote:I think we all agree that loan players are not useful when it comes to building a team for the longer term. 

All of us except Dougie that is. Sadly I fear Nat and Doff are dead right, last season was very much like this and next will be another carbon copy if DF is still in charge. It's not good enough, not in the long run despite three terrific performances on the bounce. 

Dougie should still definitely go in my opinion, preferably as soon as this season ends.

You're right LPP loan players aren't going to build our long term future, but realistically what choice did he have in January? You can't put our financial problems down to Dougie, he had to do something to improve the team and it's looking as if he did an excellent job with his recruits. As far as long term future goes I've said it a million times, he's done more to plan towards that than any previous manager it's undeniable, the fact that he can't go and sign Juke and Mason in January is in no way his fault.

Also this assertion that he can only get a side playing after January is seriously pathetic by the way, he's had one full season in charge and you think a judgement like that can be justified? You're clutching at straws I'm afraid.

Morning 1874, look at his overall record here. Including last season. Deja vu anyone?

bwfc1874 wrote:

Also this assertion that he can only get a side playing after January is seriously pathetic by the way, he's had one full season in charge and you think a judgement like that can be justified? You're clutching at straws I'm afraid.

You can only go off the evidence. You may be right in what you say, but so far we have had two similar seasons - shit for the majority, played well when it was too late.

The Bolton job isn't an easy one, but while filling our team with loan players is working in the short term it is actually detrimental to the mid and long term prospects of the club - unless of course Dougie is in a position to sign up loan players that perform well. Juke and Mason were never going to sign permanently for Bolton, so he should have been looking at players that potentially would sign.

Argue all you like 1874, but we all know that come July there will be five threads a day about how the squad is light and we need some signings before the big kick off.

On a day when pretty much everything went right for a change - including Mavies' "goal" being allowed and a potentially disastrous injury to Wheater being averted - it's taken no time at all for folk to start finding fault.
Is this really the time? Can't we enjoy it for a while?
We've already agreed to disagree about whether Dougie's plan is coming together or not and whether or not he's at fault for bringing in loan players to see us through this period knowing that they will have to be replaced in the summer. We all know we're in a horrendous situation as a club and with all the teams below us either winning or not playing this weekend we're no further away from the relegation zone, but just for a couple of days, can't you just let those of us who happen to think it's the best we could have hoped for enjoy what by any measure was a fantastic victory?
We're the last club to need a wet blanket, especially at times like these.

I'm as worried as anybody else by the fact it's loan players playing a big part for us at the moment, but that doesn't change the fact we have no choice. Like it or not Juke and Mason are clearly a better partnership than any of the strikers we had on our books at the beginning of the season and it wouldn't surprise me to see Juke get called back to Boro unfortunately. But that's not the managers fault, he should be credited for finding these players - in no way was their quality obvious, quite the opposite in fact given the fans reaction.

Good players don't grow on trees and we have no money (at all) to spend. He's going to need to have a great summer to replace this pair, but he's shown he has an eye for talent and has done well with these two yet somehow you and LPP have turned this into a negative which really is quite incredible.

luckyPeterpiper wrote:

bwfc1874 wrote:

luckyPeterpiper wrote:I think we all agree that loan players are not useful when it comes to building a team for the longer term. 

All of us except Dougie that is. Sadly I fear Nat and Doff are dead right, last season was very much like this and next will be another carbon copy if DF is still in charge. It's not good enough, not in the long run despite three terrific performances on the bounce. 

Dougie should still definitely go in my opinion, preferably as soon as this season ends.

You're right LPP loan players aren't going to build our long term future, but realistically what choice did he have in January? You can't put our financial problems down to Dougie, he had to do something to improve the team and it's looking as if he did an excellent job with his recruits. As far as long term future goes I've said it a million times, he's done more to plan towards that than any previous manager it's undeniable, the fact that he can't go and sign Juke and Mason in January is in no way his fault.

Also this assertion that he can only get a side playing after January is seriously pathetic by the way, he's had one full season in charge and you think a judgement like that can be justified? You're clutching at straws I'm afraid.

Morning 1874, look at his overall record here. Including last season. Deja vu anyone?

You've just proved my point, he hasn't even had a full season with us yet. It takes more than 18 months to develop a trend, you can't even put our poor start last season down to him.

Did anybody tape the goals from the BBC last night?
Any chance of posting it here?

bwfc1874 wrote:

luckyPeterpiper wrote:

bwfc1874 wrote:

luckyPeterpiper wrote:I think we all agree that loan players are not useful when it comes to building a team for the longer term. 

All of us except Dougie that is. Sadly I fear Nat and Doff are dead right, last season was very much like this and next will be another carbon copy if DF is still in charge. It's not good enough, not in the long run despite three terrific performances on the bounce. 

Dougie should still definitely go in my opinion, preferably as soon as this season ends.

You're right LPP loan players aren't going to build our long term future, but realistically what choice did he have in January? You can't put our financial problems down to Dougie, he had to do something to improve the team and it's looking as if he did an excellent job with his recruits. As far as long term future goes I've said it a million times, he's done more to plan towards that than any previous manager it's undeniable, the fact that he can't go and sign Juke and Mason in January is in no way his fault.

Also this assertion that he can only get a side playing after January is seriously pathetic by the way, he's had one full season in charge and you think a judgement like that can be justified? You're clutching at straws I'm afraid.

Morning 1874, look at his overall record here. Including last season. Deja vu anyone?

You've just proved my point, he hasn't even had a full season with us yet. It takes more than 18 months to develop a trend, you can't even put our poor start last season down to him.

Dougie is at fault for everything if you put your mind to it. The Ukraine situation, teenage pregnancy, world poverty, AIDS and Andrew Ridgeley's solo career are probably all down the evil one. A case can be made.

bwfc1874 wrote:

Good players don't grow on trees and we have no money (at all) to spend. He's going to need to have a great summer to replace this pair, but he's shown he has an eye for talent and has done well with these two yet somehow you and LPP have turned this into a negative which really is quite incredible.

I find it all very frustrating. Obviously it's great to win 5-1 away from home, and had the players been our own I would have a lot of hope for next season.

But it's all pointless. We aren't going up, we aren't going down - so the pressure is off and so what if we finish 16th or 9th, what does it matter.

But come June/July half the squad will be gone and we'll be back to square one. That is simply not a good plan.

Natasha Whittam wrote:

bwfc1874 wrote:

Good players don't grow on trees and we have no money (at all) to spend. He's going to need to have a great summer to replace this pair, but he's shown he has an eye for talent and has done well with these two yet somehow you and LPP have turned this into a negative which really is quite incredible.

I find it all very frustrating. Obviously it's great to win 5-1 away from home, and had the players been our own I would have a lot of hope for next season.

But it's all pointless. We aren't going up, we aren't going down - so the pressure is off and so what if we finish 16th or 9th, what does it matter.

But come June/July half the squad will be gone and we'll be back to square one. That is simply not a good plan.

I believe that is the plan... to survive and cut as much as they can this summer.  Hopefully, that money will be put to buying 2 or 3 players who will make the grade and stay with us. We are still subject to the fair play regulations and that will dictate what we can and can not do.  I would not be surprised if the debt is restructured in a way that would help the club.  Since no one can really point out where the money went, and how circuitous a route the debt came from (shopping centre, Megson and Coyle purchases and buy outs) we really don't know what ED has planned for his children.  Right now, it seems, the interest is all that he wants.  The future for the club is hidden in estate planning and tax management, as well as complying with fair play.  It's not an easy task for anyone.  So the game now is to unload as much of the higher salaries, and hope to find 2 or 3 gems this summer.  As much as everyone pissed and moaned about Juke and Mason, who would argue they play well in the championship.  Let's enjoy the ride for now.

I completely agree with that Nat, but you can't possibly put the blame for that with Dougie. He has no money to spend so has to go into the loan market, makes 2 excellent signings and then gets criticised for it? It's ridiculous.

Natasha Whittam wrote:

bwfc1874 wrote:

Also this assertion that he can only get a side playing after January is seriously pathetic by the way, he's had one full season in charge and you think a judgement like that can be justified? You're clutching at straws I'm afraid.

You can only go off the evidence. You may be right in what you say, but so far we have had two similar seasons - shit for the majority, played well when it was too late.

The point is, he spends ages dabbling with "new" formations just to be seen to be progressive, then decides when it's too late that the old-fashioned way is better. He didn't need to start altering the formation going into this season, he just couldn't resist. It's not just at Bolton that this has happened, I got a resounding "sounds familiar" when I described this on a Palace forum.

I get that this system might not have worked as well with the players available to him earlier in the season but a) that's not to suggest that it wouldn't have worked better than what he was trying and b) he's made around 20 signings in the space of 9 months, including some big ones by Championship club standards. He's had opportunities to bring in strikers that aren't complete mismatches. He certainly hasn't made the most of the strikers we started the season with, the number of times Beckford or Ngog were dropped for no apparent reason, not to mention the complete ousting of Craig Davies.

rammywhite wrote:Did anybody tape the goals from the BBC last night?
Any chance of posting it here?

The goals video hasn't been published yet so the only option is to view the goals on the Football League Show [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

doffcocker wrote:

Natasha Whittam wrote:

bwfc1874 wrote:

Also this assertion that he can only get a side playing after January is seriously pathetic by the way, he's had one full season in charge and you think a judgement like that can be justified? You're clutching at straws I'm afraid.

You can only go off the evidence. You may be right in what you say, but so far we have had two similar seasons - shit for the majority, played well when it was too late.

The point is, he spends ages dabbling with "new" formations just to be seen to be progressive, then decides when it's too late that the old-fashioned way is better. He didn't need to start altering the formation going into this season, he just couldn't resist. It's not just at Bolton that this has happened, I got a resounding "sounds familiar" when I described this on a Palace forum.

I get that this system might not have worked as well with the players available to him earlier in the season but a) that's not to suggest that it wouldn't have worked better than what he was trying and b) he's made around 20 signings in the space of 9 months, including some big ones by Championship club standards. He's had opportunities to bring in strikers that aren't complete mismatches. He certainly hasn't made the most of the strikers we started the season with, the number of times Beckford or Ngog were dropped for no apparent reason, not to mention the complete ousting of Craig Davies.

I think it was more a stubbornness in wanting the side to play 'his way' than a desire to look progressive, but Im not arguing against that point just that he should get credit for the loans not criticism, everybody has to admit his hands are tied financially. 

I completely agree that he should have seen how effective this formation was last season and recruited accordingly rather than persist with trying to force his style. I can't about N'gog though, the back end of last season was N'gog's best time at the club (not saying much) but this season he struggled to get fit and generally didn't look interested when he played I don't think there was much more to get out of him, he's done nothing in his career to suggest he could stay fit and in form for a season. He'll have to replace him permanently in the summer and I definitely think he'll find better. There's no arguing the point about Craig Davies, don't know exactly what's gone on there but we could of got more out of him.

He's the manager and the start to the season we had means he's lucky to be in the job, but I don't think it's bad that he is. He's got a lot of qualities other managers don't which we're going to need to get through this financial mess. I hope that tactically he's learnt a lot from the last few games and sees this formation suits the players better, so stick with it now, and start bringing some of the youth through next season and we'll be heading in the right direction.

Look, I don't blame Dougie for every bad thing that ever happens.

What I do blame him for is the way he has failed to accept that he made mistakes for the largest part of this season and that his system didn't work. He changed it and still didn't admit he;d been wrong to begin with. We can't start our season in February every year. 

Dougie arrived eighteen months ago, we didn't hit any sort of form until three or four months into his time with us. Back then I was patient, he took over a real mess and the players needed time to get used to him or so I thought. When we went on the run it looked as if he had found the way forward and I lauded him as did many others. 

But then this term the same thing has happened. For months he's played about with systems and tactics, made incomprehensible team selections and insane substitutions and signally failed to get the best out of our players at all while depending on short term loans to get out of a relegation battle we should never have been in. 

For that reason I believe he is the wrong man for the job and we need to make a change in the summer as a matter of urgency. I give him full credit for the last three matches where he has undeniably got it right but after so long it's too little too late; at least for me.

At the end of the day it's quite simple for Dougie now - the team have proven which formation gets the best out of them, it's up to the manager to bring in players to suit this formation in the Summer.

If come August we're back playing Beckford upfront on his own I'll be off to Chorley on a more permanent basis.