Brexit - A new twist!

A metaphorical armageddon, picked up and used by TV and newspapers of all persuasions alike, as you well know. Cameron even spoke of WW3 (!) in a failed attempt to put the fear of God into us. His miscalculation cost him his job, quite rightly.

But Glos is right:-let's not go down this road again. Both sides lied and exaggerated so as to leave the public unsure of what might be the truth and so which way to vote. Too little honest and trustworthy detail provided. Early outcomes have not produced the doom and gloom forecast......but there is still plenty of time, especially with the delightful Juncker around!

Super Toastie, Pepsi and a four pack of Twirls still the same price as pre-Brexit.

Until they start to rise I won't believe a word the Remainers say.

xmiles wrote:

gloswhite wrote:What they and others actually said was that leaving the EU could lead to inflation, unemployment and recession.


And they leavers said that the NHS could receive up to 350M did they not ?  (lets not go down this road again) 

Unfortunately the brexiteers did not say could. They just lied about the £350m. See the actual quotes from them here:

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=4&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwio55LNy6bSAhWEAcAKHeYnC2sQFggtMAM&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.quora.com%2FWhat-exactly-did-the-Leave-proponents-promise-regarding-the-%25C2%25A3350-million-per-week&usg=AFQjCNFQAUbMRWUiJ6O0tJ6oaASgHTAoZw&sig2=RXB51ZUTskzXxXOrStD6Pw

 I knew you'd bite. 

Natasha Whittam wrote:Super Toastie, Pepsi and a four pack of Twirls still the same price as pre-Brexit.

Until they start to rise I won't believe a word the Remainers say.

I do hope that's not Warby's super toastie you are referring to?

When I worked there as a student the big mute guy used to wipe his snot and god knows what else on the dough balls just before they went in the prover. 
Haven't touched Warby's bread since because of the high bodily fluids content. 
More bukkake than bakery.

Bread2.0 wrote:https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/feb/26/us-billionaire-mercer-helped-back-brexit

I saw this and also the articles about other corporate billionaires who backed Brexit in other ways in order to increase their market share and undermine their competitors, but the key thing about this guy is that his organisation is specifically skilled in the area of disinformation and media manipulation and TBF it worked a treat - mainly because Cameron couldn't get his head round the idea that if you lie, the mud sticks anyway. 

I wonder what they'll get in return?

Meanwhile, the stealth taxes to pay for Brexit continue to arrive on a daily basis, the latest trend being to remove the cap on council tax rises so they can up the rate to cover the basics AND reduce services. Many councils, including mine are facing CT rises of up to 5% after pre-referendum increase caps are being scrapped all over the country.

On Friday, Preston's Labour Council successfully fought off attempts to go beyond a 2% rise next month by levying the rural parish councils ("rural apartheid" according to one Tory Councillor) but they have agreed to outsource bin collections to the private sector so that may affect Whittam Towers as the new bin men won't have access to Nat's private entrance.

But at least the lurking billionaires will be alright.

Business rates hikes are proving contraversial. Looking like it will be British SME businesses that will take the brunt of it whilst the big corporates will get away with it - as expected.

Meanwhile the Ministry of Justice has altered the way they calculate accident compensation which is expected to lead to a hike in car insurance premiums - although this is more attributable to our increasingly litigious society than Brexit.

What is attributable to Brexit is the rise in the price of stamps next month which are set to go up due to inflation and the rise in the Consumer Price Index. Not that anyone uses stamps anymore.

Both Remain and Leave campaign's referendum spending being investigated by the Electoral Commission.

Dare they cast doubt on the validity of the Referendum?

I doubt it, even if it turns out it was as bent as it looks.

Lets be honest, when we consider what, and how much, cash and influence was at stake, are we really naive enough to think it would all be honest and above board, throughout the whole process? Even the initial concept of the referendum was for political gain, nothing to do with what was good for the country.

gloswhite wrote:Lets be honest, when we consider what, and how much, cash and influence was at stake, are we really naive enough to think it would all be honest and above board, throughout the whole process? 

I think Cameron was VERY naive and expected a fair fight. 
He was totally unprepared, had no idea how much money, media manipulation and big business wheeling and dealing was behind the Leave campaign and got absolutely battered as a result.

Yes Cameron was very naive and only wanted the referendum for personal political reasons but I think his major misjudgement (after calling the referendum in the first place) was not having an effective remain campaign strategy. He seemed to think that as Operation Fear worked in Scotland it would work in the EU referendum equally well. Needless to say it didn't and there was no plan B.

It might have helped if Corbyn had actually campaigned with the remain campaign rather than pretending to do so but it probably wouldn't have made any difference.

xmiles wrote:Yes Cameron was very naive and only wanted the referendum for personal political reasons but I think his major misjudgement (after calling the referendum in the first place) was not having an effective remain campaign strategy. He seemed to think that as Operation Fear worked in Scotland it would work in the EU referendum equally well. Needless to say it didn't and there was no plan B.

It might have helped if Corbyn had actually campaigned with the remain campaign rather than pretending to do so but it probably wouldn't have made any difference.

It wasn't just the fact that the Leave cartel had a bigger budget for advertising etc than the Remainers - it was how they used their media connections and Mercer's strategic propaganda work which was provided to the Leave campaign free of charge and which gave them a clear plan of action that Cameron seriously lacked.

Lets not forget that Cameron and the Remainers brought in many big guns, including lots of celebrities and high powered people, even the President of the United States ! 
What let him down as much as anything was speaking to the nation, along with his ex Chancellor crony in a patronising manner, as though we didn't know what was good for us, whilst being backed by what appeared to be nothing more than rich people looking after the golden goose. His emphasis on money and trade only was what finally killed him and his pathetic campaign. 
But we all know that's just history now, and we should be forward looking, which holds a whole heap of issues and problems, and a challenge that I genuinely feel we can meet.

gloswhite wrote:
What let him down as much as anything was speaking to the nation, along with his ex Chancellor crony in a patronising manner, as though we didn't know what was good for us.

As the saying goes "there are none so blind as those who will not see".

It will be some time before we see the full consequences of brexit but I cannot share your optimism glos.

okocha wrote:Why do we never hear M.P.s and H.O.L. peers focus on what a financial failure the EU is and how bad it will be for the UK to be shackled to such a liability.

High unemployment, banks ‘teetering’, migrant chaos, Schengen fences, left and right wing polarised.

Oh... and the UK contribution to the EU is due to increase by a third in 2019.

High unemployment is due to us not having a good old fashioned war in Europe since the Common Market was formed, war being the prime mover in employment figures.
The highest period in the last century was between the world wars when UK unemployment was up to 20%. It is no coincidence that when it started to climb again under Thatcher's regime reaching 13% in 1982 we declared war on Argentina and within a couple of years unemployment fell back to under 10%.

Left and right are far less polarised in Europe then they were historically and if anything the EU has fostered centrism, especially in the UK where socialism has all but disappeared.

Banks teetering is a global phenomenon initiated by the Americans, not a European issue.

Schengen removed passport control in many borders but it had no impact whatsoever on Customs checks and security controls which have always remained in the hands of each country and are as rigorous as ever in the UK. Big difference between not needing a passport to travel and national security as any Customs officer will tell you. In fact whilst we have been in the EU, British Customs and Excise have acquired more power than they ever had.

And as for Cameron etc talking down to "the people"? That's how the Leave controlled media spun the presentation (on the advice of the American billionaire) as part of the strategy to position the Remainers as sanctimonious.

It's the same strategy that says "we won fair and square (which is patently not true) so any complaints are just sour grapes". Great way to push through reforms that weren't even voted on and make a gullible nation believe that they were "fighting the people in power" when it was in fact the people in power manipulating the people to reposition themselves for personal gain.

wanderlust wrote:

okocha wrote:Why do we never hear M.P.s and H.O.L. peers focus on what a financial failure the EU is and how bad it will be for the UK to be shackled to such a liability.

High unemployment, banks ‘teetering’, migrant chaos, Schengen fences, left and right wing polarised.

Oh... and the UK contribution to the EU is due to increase by a third in 2019.

High unemployment is due to us not having a good old fashioned war in Europe since the Common Market was formed, war being the prime mover in employment figures.
The highest period in the last century was between the world wars when UK unemployment was up to 20%. It is no coincidence that when it started to climb again under Thatcher's regime reaching 13% in 1982 we declared war on Argentina and within a couple of years unemployment fell back to under 10%.

Left and right are far less polarised in Europe then they were historically and if anything the EU has fostered centrism, especially in the UK where socialism has all but disappeared.

Banks teetering is a global phenomenon initiated by the Americans, not a European issue.

Schengen removed passport control in many borders but it had no impact whatsoever on Customs checks and security controls which have always remained in the hands of each country and are as rigorous as ever in the UK. Big difference between not needing a passport to travel and national security as any Customs officer will tell you. In fact whilst we have been in the EU, British Customs and Excise have acquired more power than they ever had.

And as for Cameron etc talking down to "the people"? That's how the Leave controlled media spun the presentation (on the advice of the American billionaire) as part of the strategy to position the Remainers as sanctimonious.

It's the same strategy that says "we won fair and square (which is patently not true) so any complaints are just sour grapes". Great way to push through reforms that weren't even voted on and make a gullible nation believe that they were "fighting the people in power" when it was in fact the people in power manipulating the people to reposition themselves for personal gain.

I agree with a lot of what you say Lusty- apart from the bit about high unemployment. We've actually got high employment figures at the minute. The current unemployment rate in the UK is  4.8% (see Labour Force Statistics  ONS, Feb 17) and given that full employment is usually defined as having a structural unemployment level of 4% (people between jobs, unemployed temporarily for reasons of sickness and other structural reasons), then its a fairly high figure for those in work.
Granted that zero hours contracts, part time jobs etc  might not ,in some peoples eyes constitute 'real' employment then the employment statistics are fairly healthy especially during winter when unemployment might be expected to rise (no agriculture, little tourism, construction low because of weather)
There are more unfilled vacancies than people actively seeking work at the minute ( ONS- same source) so we are fairly close to full employment as defined by various government bodies.
 I don't think a war economy is as powerful an argument as you presume as having lots of young people in uniforms  off to fight for the motherland (or fatherland- presumably it should now be personland) may not constitute real jobs, but it does encourage  more people into the factories as we saw in the 14-18  and 39-45 conflict.
As we will never fight another  conventional war like this ever again (it'll be nuclear) then that phenomenon will not occur again.
I think the employment rate is healthy

It wouldn't surprise me if other countries follow once we leave, crippling the EU still further in terms of effectiveness and value for money.

rammywhite wrote:

wanderlust wrote:

okocha wrote:Why do we never hear M.P.s and H.O.L. peers focus on what a financial failure the EU is and how bad it will be for the UK to be shackled to such a liability.

High unemployment, banks ‘teetering’, migrant chaos, Schengen fences, left and right wing polarised.

Oh... and the UK contribution to the EU is due to increase by a third in 2019.

High unemployment is due to us not having a good old fashioned war in Europe since the Common Market was formed, war being the prime mover in employment figures.
The highest period in the last century was between the world wars when UK unemployment was up to 20%. It is no coincidence that when it started to climb again under Thatcher's regime reaching 13% in 1982 we declared war on Argentina and within a couple of years unemployment fell back to under 10%.

Left and right are far less polarised in Europe then they were historically and if anything the EU has fostered centrism, especially in the UK where socialism has all but disappeared.

Banks teetering is a global phenomenon initiated by the Americans, not a European issue.

Schengen removed passport control in many borders but it had no impact whatsoever on Customs checks and security controls which have always remained in the hands of each country and are as rigorous as ever in the UK. Big difference between not needing a passport to travel and national security as any Customs officer will tell you. In fact whilst we have been in the EU, British Customs and Excise have acquired more power than they ever had.

And as for Cameron etc talking down to "the people"? That's how the Leave controlled media spun the presentation (on the advice of the American billionaire) as part of the strategy to position the Remainers as sanctimonious.

It's the same strategy that says "we won fair and square (which is patently not true) so any complaints are just sour grapes". Great way to push through reforms that weren't even voted on and make a gullible nation believe that they were "fighting the people in power" when it was in fact the people in power manipulating the people to reposition themselves for personal gain.

I agree with a lot of what you say Lusty- apart from the bit about high unemployment. We've actually got high employment figures at the minute. The current unemployment rate in the UK is  4.8% (see Labour Force Statistics  ONS, Feb 17) and given that full employment is usually defined as having a structural unemployment level of 4% (people between jobs, unemployed temporarily for reasons of sickness and other structural reasons), then its a fairly high figure for those in work.
Granted that zero hours contracts, part time jobs etc  might not ,in some peoples eyes constitute 'real' employment then the employment statistics are fairly healthy especially during winter when unemployment might be expected to rise (no agriculture, little tourism, construction low because of weather)
There are more unfilled vacancies than people actively seeking work at the minute ( ONS- same source) so we are fairly close to full employment as defined by various government bodies.
 I don't think a war economy is as powerful an argument as you presume as having lots of young people in uniforms  off to fight for the motherland (or fatherland- presumably it should now be personland) may not constitute real jobs, but it does encourage  more people into the factories as we saw in the 14-18  and 39-45 conflict.
As we will never fight another  conventional war like this ever again (it'll be nuclear) then that phenomenon will not occur again.
I think the employment rate is healthy

I agree that the unemployment rate is currently healthy in terms of peace time employment but there's a clear correlation between peace and higher unemployment as this graph shows. 
Basically war reduces the number of people of working age available for a job either due to conscription or death whilst simultaneously creating new jobs in arms, logistics and manufacturing and many other sectors.
I agree modern warfare has less of an effect as arms production is more specialist and in the hands of (mainly foreign) billionaire organisations, but as the Falklands shows, a good war is still a boost for the economy and helps bring down the figures.
We've been pretty steady since then vascillating between 4 and 8% at the peak although the figures have been manipulated by changing the way they are calculated and assorted Government schemes that e.g. include part timers and zero hours contracts etc.

Either way, I can't see how Okocha reckons this is somehow an indictment of the EU. 

Moreover, the quality of employment and workers's rights have improved beyond all recognition whilst we've been in the EU. As a famous Tory once said "you've never had it so good"....

okocha wrote:A metaphorical armageddon, picked up and used by TV and newspapers of all persuasions alike, as you well know. Cameron even spoke of WW3 (!) in a failed attempt to put the fear of God into us. His miscalculation cost him his job, quite rightly.

You really shouldn't believe what you read in the papers Okocha - Cameron never said anything about WW3 (!)
That claim that Cameron said it was made by Boris Johnson and another lying toerag who happened to work for Rupert Murdoch - another "man of the people" LOL.

This is another example of the British people being lied to in order to get them to turn against Europe. 

Cameron's exact words were:

"Can we be so sure peace and stability on our continent are assured beyond any shadow of doubt? Is that a risk worth taking? I would never be so rash to make that assumption."
I can't remember who made up the claim that Cameron said something about WW3 but I believe it was one of Rupert Murdoch's hacks. I do know it was Johnson who interpreted that as suggesting there could be war in Europe whereas Cameron was referring to the advantages of Europe working co-operatively through NATO.
Making an outrageous claim such as this was an excellent tactic (thanks American billionaire!) because now Cameron was forced to deny something he never said in the first place as was - and more importantly was perceived to be - on the defensive at best and "backtracking" at worst.
Following the publication of the lie Cameron rebutted it as he had to saying "No, I don't believe that leaving the EU would cause World War Three to break out on the European continent."
And psychologically, even though he's denying it, doing so put the "issue" at the forefront of people's minds again so the Leave campaign got a double hit from one lie.
Unfortunately, most people haven't had media training, don't understand the psychology of media manipulation and sadly tend to believe "where there's smoke there's fire" even if what is said is a downright lie.
The Leave campaign's American backers were banking on the ignorance of the British people and that's how they conned the nation.