Brexit negotiations

luckyPeterpiper wrote:I hate to say this but Panasonic will not be the last, not even close. I fully expect Nissan and Ford to follow suit and I wouldn't be surprised if a great many more manufacturing and service companies did the same. Brexit is going to be an unmitigated disaster for this country that our children and grandchildren will spend decades paying the price for long after the idiots who actually voted for it including my dad are dead and gone.

Frankly the politics (far too dignified a term for what it really is) of bigotry and hate have won and they won in the US too which is why they have the worst President in the entire history of their nation sitting in the White House. It's a bad time all over for anything that smacks of tolerance and reason and I only hope people wake up to that fact soon, very soon or it'll be too late.

luckyPeterpiper wrote:I hate to say this but Panasonic will not be the last, not even close. I fully expect Nissan and Ford to follow suit and I wouldn't be surprised if a great many more manufacturing and service companies did the same. Brexit is going to be an unmitigated disaster for this country that our children and grandchildren will spend decades paying the price for long after the idiots who actually voted for it including my dad are dead and gone.

Frankly the politics (far too dignified a term for what it really is) of bigotry and hate have won and they won in the US too which is why they have the worst President in the entire history of their nation sitting in the White House. It's a bad time all over for anything that smacks of tolerance and reason and I only hope people wake up to that fact soon, very soon or it'll be too late.

Not that I really bother too much about something I have absolutely no control over but the way I understand it the reason why Panasonic are moving their HQ to remain in an EU country is more to do with how their own country taxes them.

They believe the UK will slash their tax rates undercutting the EU after Brexit to be attractive to drawing businesses in.  It seems the less tax they would have to pay in the UK because of this would mean more tax being taken from them back home in Japan.

As a global company it is somehow in their own interests to pay higher tax abroad and that is why they want their HQ to be in the EU - so they will pay more tax there than they would have done if it remain in the UK!

- Several Japanese financial companies have said they intend to move their main EU bases away from London.
Panasonic's decision was driven by a fear that Japan could start considering the UK a tax haven if it cuts corporate tax rates to attract business, Mr Abadie told the Nikkei Asian Review newspaper.
If Panasonic ends up paying less tax in the UK, that could render it liable for a bigger tax bill in Japan.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-45351288

Sluffy wrote:

luckyPeterpiper wrote:I hate to say this but Panasonic will not be the last, not even close. I fully expect Nissan and Ford to follow suit and I wouldn't be surprised if a great many more manufacturing and service companies did the same. Brexit is going to be an unmitigated disaster for this country that our children and grandchildren will spend decades paying the price for long after the idiots who actually voted for it including my dad are dead and gone.

Frankly the politics (far too dignified a term for what it really is) of bigotry and hate have won and they won in the US too which is why they have the worst President in the entire history of their nation sitting in the White House. It's a bad time all over for anything that smacks of tolerance and reason and I only hope people wake up to that fact soon, very soon or it'll be too late.

Not that I really bother too much about something I have absolutely no control over but the way I understand it the reason why Panasonic are moving their HQ to remain in an EU country is more to do with how their own country taxes them.

They believe the UK will slash their tax rates undercutting the EU after Brexit to be attractive to drawing businesses in.  It seems the less tax they would have to pay in the UK because of this would mean more tax being taken from them back home in Japan.

As a global company it is somehow in their own interests to pay higher tax abroad and that is why they want their HQ to be in the EU - so they will pay more tax there than they would have done if it remain in the UK!

- Several Japanese financial companies have said they intend to move their main EU bases away from London.
Panasonic's decision was driven by a fear that Japan could start considering the UK a tax haven if it cuts corporate tax rates to attract business, Mr Abadie told the Nikkei Asian Review newspaper.
If Panasonic ends up paying less tax in the UK, that could render it liable for a bigger tax bill in Japan.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-45351288

Even though the reason for Panasonic leaving the UK may seem a bit esoteric it nevertheless means that other Japanese companies are likely to leave too which is not good for our economy. Quite a few companies are thinking of moving from the UK to the EU because of brexit but I have not heard of a single company with any plans to move to the UK because of brexit. Nor is there any evidence of any economic benefit arising from brexit.

Sluffy, the real reason Panasonic have moved has nothing to do with their japanese tax bill mate. Panasonic (UK) is actually a separate legal entity from Panasonic as a whole in part thanks to the way the Japanese government has incentivised companies to sell abroad and set up manufacturing facilities in foreign countries. For Mr Abadie to admit they're leaving the UK as a result of Brexit in order to ensure they don't lose the 'tariff free' movement of goods throughout the EU would be seen as grossly impolite and would lead to a loss of face both for him and Panasonic that is in Japanese culture completely unacceptable. The fact is the UK government cannot possibly afford to set the tax rates as low as it's claiming might be the case because of course (a) it would hurt the Treasury's revenue at a time when it's about to be hammered anyway and (b) they simply dare not do it anyway after all the noise about 'Starbucks' among others not paying their 'fair share'.

I seriously doubt the Japanese government cares what Panasonic UK or for that matter Nissan are paying to our government since their government is pretty much hand picked by their big corporations anyway. Their Prime Minister is still nothing more than a mouthpiece for Corporate Japan and it's been that way for nearly a century mate. What's odd is the Japanese people both know and accept that even as they profess to want a 'real' democracy. It's very much a cultural thing in which the chairman of the board has replaced the shogun but has much the same power albeit not so overtly.

luckyPeterpiper wrote:Sluffy, the real reason Panasonic have moved has nothing to do with their japanese tax bill mate. Panasonic (UK) is actually a separate legal entity from Panasonic as a whole in part thanks to the way the Japanese government has incentivised companies to sell abroad and set up manufacturing facilities in foreign countries. For Mr Abadie to admit they're leaving the UK as a result of Brexit in order to ensure they don't lose the 'tariff free' movement of goods throughout the EU would be seen as grossly impolite and would lead to a loss of face both for him and Panasonic that is in Japanese culture completely unacceptable. The fact is the UK government cannot possibly afford to set the tax rates as low as it's claiming might be the case because of course (a) it would hurt the Treasury's revenue at a time when it's about to be hammered anyway and (b) they simply dare not do it anyway after all the noise about 'Starbucks' among others not paying their 'fair share'.

I seriously doubt the Japanese government cares what Panasonic UK or for that matter Nissan are paying to our government since their government is pretty much hand picked by their big corporations anyway. Their Prime Minister is still nothing more than a mouthpiece for Corporate Japan and it's been that way for nearly a century mate. What's odd is the Japanese people both know and accept that even as they profess to want a 'real' democracy. It's very much a cultural thing in which the chairman of the board has replaced the shogun but has much the same power albeit not so overtly.

Peter it is not me that is saying Panasonic is moving its HQ for tax reasons - it's the BBC Business Section - read the link above which I've already provided in my last post.

It seems like "no deal" is inevitable ATM although that could change. Either way I reckon we're committing economic suicide. Some adamant Leavers don't care. The rest don't fully realise what it will mean to them.

Sluffy wrote:

luckyPeterpiper wrote:Sluffy, the real reason Panasonic have moved has nothing to do with their japanese tax bill mate. Panasonic (UK) is actually a separate legal entity from Panasonic as a whole in part thanks to the way the Japanese government has incentivised companies to sell abroad and set up manufacturing facilities in foreign countries. For Mr Abadie to admit they're leaving the UK as a result of Brexit in order to ensure they don't lose the 'tariff free' movement of goods throughout the EU would be seen as grossly impolite and would lead to a loss of face both for him and Panasonic that is in Japanese culture completely unacceptable. The fact is the UK government cannot possibly afford to set the tax rates as low as it's claiming might be the case because of course (a) it would hurt the Treasury's revenue at a time when it's about to be hammered anyway and (b) they simply dare not do it anyway after all the noise about 'Starbucks' among others not paying their 'fair share'.

I seriously doubt the Japanese government cares what Panasonic UK or for that matter Nissan are paying to our government since their government is pretty much hand picked by their big corporations anyway. Their Prime Minister is still nothing more than a mouthpiece for Corporate Japan and it's been that way for nearly a century mate. What's odd is the Japanese people both know and accept that even as they profess to want a 'real' democracy. It's very much a cultural thing in which the chairman of the board has replaced the shogun but has much the same power albeit not so overtly.

Peter it is not me that is saying Panasonic is moving its HQ for tax reasons - it's the BBC Business Section - read the link above which I've already provided in my last post.

You misunderstand me mate. I have no doubt that Mr Abadie said exactly what the BBC report he said. I'm saying that it's just not the true reason why Panasonic is leaving, it's simply their way of 'spinning' the announcement. It's basically a face saver all round, first by hinting the UK government is NOT to blame for the decision and second by giving a 'good' reason for Panasonic to leave. In truth though it's much more likely that Panasonic are jumping ship now because they already know there's not going to be a Brexit deal and they simply don't want to pay the various import tarrifs moving goods from the UK to tmainland Europe will incur. Those taxes may not come from this end, they certainly WILL from Europe itself. In effect anyone doing business in the UK will be seen as exporters to the EU and will attract much bigger import duties there as a result. With no deal the UK would be trading under WTA rules and they're not exactly friendly to us or the others in the world who have to abide by them when it comes to export to EU, USA, China and Japan in particular.

Tories now in-fighting with the Chancellor and Trade Secretary unable to agree on the extent of the damage a no-deal scenario will cause here.

Regardless of the figures, Liam Fox seems intent on following Project Ostrich through to it's inevitable conclusion.....

Unfortunately lusty I think no deal is certain no matter what the negotiating teams agree.

The reason for my pessimistic outlook is that whatever 'deal' is agreed now has to be ratified by all the member states of the EU. It has to be unanimous and I can think of at least four countries off the top of my head who won't be keen to give the UK anything that resembles a good deal because it would be committing political suicide for them domestically. Poland, Greece, even Spain and Italy aren't exactly eneamoured with us or the way our media have portrayed their citizens. Any government in those four nations that gets seen as helping the UK in any way can say goodbye to power pretty much instantly. It only needs ONE of them to say no and we're out of the EU with no deal in place. Once we ARE gone any kind of trade deal would be hard to get at best.

luckyPeterpiper wrote:Unfortunately lusty I think no deal is certain no matter what the negotiating teams agree.

The reason for my pessimistic outlook is that whatever 'deal' is agreed now has to be ratified by all the member states of the EU. It has to be unanimous and I can think of at least four countries off the top of my head who won't be keen to give the UK anything that resembles a good deal because it would be committing political suicide for them domestically. Poland, Greece, even Spain and Italy aren't exactly eneamoured with us or the way our media have portrayed their citizens. Any government in those four nations that gets seen as helping the UK in any way can say goodbye to power pretty much instantly. It only needs ONE of them to say no and we're out of the EU with no deal in place. Once we ARE gone any kind of trade deal would be hard to get at best.

France and Germany have enough influence on the other member states to swing any deal, however it would have to be a deal the big two EU economies want and unfortunately the whole premise of Brexit goes against their core objective of creating a federation of countries that would collectively be able to compete with the economic superpowers of the USA and China. In that respect I don't believe a deal is impossible as Norway has already got a deal outside the EU.
IMO the biggest obstacle is our own government who are blindly ignoring the likely outcomes in order to curry political favour with what is now a minority of people who support Brexit.
They are not only burying their head in the sand and ignoring expert advice - including that coming from within their own party - but going to great lengths to discredit anyone who flags up the dangers ahead.
Liam Fox's argument is on the lines of "it might rain and we have no shelter but that doesn't necessarily mean we'll get wet as technically speaking all the raindrops could miss us."

I'm much less sanguine than you are about Germany's influence especially over Poland. Don't forget, the individual national governments have to ratify whatever agreements are reached and I can't see the German government being stupid enough to do anything that could be seen as interfering in Poland's internal affairs. And any Polish government that's seen to be toeing a German line would be instantly villified by the Polish people. Ultimately it's going to be the domestic opinions of the member states' populace that will decide how each state votes and no matter what Germany and France might want there are plenty of Europeans who distrust Berlin almost as much as they dislike us.

The one thing you can guarantee is that the brexit fans on this site won't have anything constructive to say. They will remain completely impervious to facts and continue to dream their little Britain dreams.

xmiles wrote:The one thing you can guarantee is that the brexit fans on this site won't have anything constructive to say. They will remain completely impervious to facts and continue to dream their little Britain dreams.

karlypants wrote:

xmiles wrote:The one thing you can guarantee is that the brexit fans on this site won't have anything constructive to say. They will remain completely impervious to facts and continue to dream their little Britain dreams.

I rest my case.

xmiles wrote:The one thing you can guarantee is that the brexit fans on this site won't have anything constructive to say. They will remain completely impervious to facts and continue to dream their little Britain dreams.

You've made your mind up. What's the point in arguing with you?

Natasha Whittam wrote:

xmiles wrote:The one thing you can guarantee is that the brexit fans on this site won't have anything constructive to say. They will remain completely impervious to facts and continue to dream their little Britain dreams.

You've made your mind up. What's the point in arguing with you?

OK but I would actually like to see someone make a case for brexit that was based on evidence as opposed to wild fantasies about trade opportunites post brexit or racist opinions (which I don't accuse you of having).

It's hardly a surprise the reaction is it? Our politicians still think we can have our cake and eat it which is completely arrogant and stupid.

Johnson had a go from the sidelines again but Operation Ostrich has slapped him down again here. Not surprising as he offers no practical solutions whatsoever. Maybe he's finally realised what a dumbass idea Brexit is and has settled for sniping at the idiots he used to support before the reality of the situation started to set in? He can afford to as the rich won't get as mangled by leaving the EU.

Boris again. 

The deeper we get into this mess, the more Boris is realising what he's done. Why he sees it as an opportunity to grab the Tory leadership is beyond me though. After all he was instrumental in causing the problem in the first place.