Brexit negotiations

You keep talking about this referendum and referenda in general.

The issues you have with it are universal in all types of election. This is my point.

You would cancel referenda so would you extend that to general and local elections?

Things will get better when we take control.

Hipster_Nebula wrote:

xmiles wrote:

Hipster_Nebula wrote:There were also variation of thought among those voting remain shock horror.

I'm sure we'd be having the same argument if that side had won (ha ha ha ha ha ha ha) 

Deliberately missing the point.

100% of people who voted remain knew that remain meant staying in the EU. Nobody knows what kind of brexit people wanted when they voted leave.

Not true. One of the phrases I heard many times in the referendum was "remain and reform" what kind of reform was being spoken about?

Complete guesswork with your figures yet again.

Now you are just being deliberately obtuse. Everything I said is true and there is no guesswork with the one figure I used. If you voted remain it meant we stayed in the EU. Whether "reform" happened or not we stayed in the EU. Thus there was 100% complete clarity on what a vote to remain meant.

In contrast there was no definition as to what leave meant and at various times completely contradictory interpretations were advanced by leave advocates. So nobody knew exactly what leaving would entail and nobody has any details of what leave voters thought they were voting for.

Finally can you give some examples of remain campaigners referring to "remain and reform". It should be easy since you apparently heard it many times.

Hipster_Nebula wrote:You keep talking about this referendum and referenda in general.

The issues you have with it are universal in all types of election. This is my point.

You would cancel referenda so would you extend that to general and local elections?

There's a difference. In an election people vote for a party based on an agreed and published  manifesto and the party with the most MPs becomes the Government. In the EU referendum we were given a choice between a manifesto i.e. Remain or multiple conflicting manifestos.

In essence the Leave manifesto was we will stay in the SM and CU and we will leave the SM and the CU.

As there has never been another candidate in an election or referendum in history whose manifesto is self-contradictory my view on it can hardly be described as universal.

wanderlust wrote:

Hipster_Nebula wrote:You keep talking about this referendum and referenda in general.

The issues you have with it are universal in all types of election. This is my point.

You would cancel referenda so would you extend that to general and local elections?

There's a difference. In an election people vote for a party based on an agreed and published  manifesto and the party with the most MPs becomes the Government. In the EU referendum we were given a choice between a manifesto i.e. Remain or multiple conflicting manifestos.

In essence the Leave manifesto was we will stay in the SM and CU and we will leave the SM and the CU.

As there has never been another candidate in an election or referendum in history whose manifesto is self-contradictory my view on it can hardly be described as universal.

Yes and the parties never go back on manifesto promises or lie during campaigns. There's also never examples of electoral fraud during generals either is there.

All things you've cited as reasons referendums should be cancelled.

xmiles wrote:

Hipster_Nebula wrote:

xmiles wrote:

Hipster_Nebula wrote:There were also variation of thought among those voting remain shock horror.

I'm sure we'd be having the same argument if that side had won (ha ha ha ha ha ha ha) 

Deliberately missing the point.

100% of people who voted remain knew that remain meant staying in the EU. Nobody knows what kind of brexit people wanted when they voted leave.

Not true. One of the phrases I heard many times in the referendum was "remain and reform" what kind of reform was being spoken about?

Complete guesswork with your figures yet again.

Now you are just being deliberately obtuse. Everything I said is true and there is no guesswork with the one figure I used. If you voted remain it meant we stayed in the EU. Whether "reform" happened or not we stayed in the EU. Thus there was 100% complete clarity on what a vote to remain meant.

In contrast there was no definition as to what leave meant and at various times completely contradictory interpretations were advanced by leave advocates. So nobody knew exactly what leaving would entail and nobody has any details of what leave voters thought they were voting for.

Finally can you give some examples of remain campaigners referring to "remain and reform". It should be easy since you apparently heard it many times.

It was the official labour party position as set out by their leader.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/labourlist.org/2016/04/europe-needs-to-change-but-i-am-voting-to-stay-corbyns-full-speech-on-the-eu/%3famp

Hipster_Nebula wrote:

xmiles wrote:

Hipster_Nebula wrote:

xmiles wrote:

Hipster_Nebula wrote:There were also variation of thought among those voting remain shock horror.

I'm sure we'd be having the same argument if that side had won (ha ha ha ha ha ha ha) 

Deliberately missing the point.

100% of people who voted remain knew that remain meant staying in the EU. Nobody knows what kind of brexit people wanted when they voted leave.

Not true. One of the phrases I heard many times in the referendum was "remain and reform" what kind of reform was being spoken about?

Complete guesswork with your figures yet again.

Now you are just being deliberately obtuse. Everything I said is true and there is no guesswork with the one figure I used. If you voted remain it meant we stayed in the EU. Whether "reform" happened or not we stayed in the EU. Thus there was 100% complete clarity on what a vote to remain meant.

In contrast there was no definition as to what leave meant and at various times completely contradictory interpretations were advanced by leave advocates. So nobody knew exactly what leaving would entail and nobody has any details of what leave voters thought they were voting for.

Finally can you give some examples of remain campaigners referring to "remain and reform". It should be easy since you apparently heard it many times.

It was the official labour party position as set out by their leader.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/labourlist.org/2016/04/europe-needs-to-change-but-i-am-voting-to-stay-corbyns-full-speech-on-the-eu/%3famp

Still wilfully not dealing with the main point I made, just picking up the throwaway about "remain and reform". Yes Corbyn said "So the case I’m making is for ‘Remain – and Reform’ in Europe" but did anyone else say that? Even if they did, so what. It doesn't alter the fact that voting remain was a clear decision and voting leave was not. It was a vote for a variety of contradictory claims and none of know what these leave voters actually voted for.

Its very clear in my mind what I voted for, and why. No point talking to you or other remainers about it, as you have made your own minds up from day 1, and have worn blinkers ever since.

gloswhite wrote:Its very clear in my mind what I voted for, and why. No point talking to you or other remainers about it, as you have made your own minds up from day 1, and have worn blinkers ever since.

I gave up arguing about Brexit months ago. I've got better things to do quite frankly. I'm just going to see how it plays out, for good or ill.
Whatever happens, this thread will probably still be going strong in 2025.

gloswhite wrote:Its very clear in my mind what I voted for, and why. No point talking to you or other remainers about it, as you have made your own minds up from day 1, and have worn blinkers ever since.

You are "very clear in my mind what I voted for, and why". So exactly who has been wearing blinkers ever since and ignored all the evidence that has emerged since the referendum?

xmiles wrote:

Hipster_Nebula wrote:

xmiles wrote:

Hipster_Nebula wrote:

xmiles wrote:

Hipster_Nebula wrote:There were also variation of thought among those voting remain shock horror.

I'm sure we'd be having the same argument if that side had won (ha ha ha ha ha ha ha) 

Deliberately missing the point.

100% of people who voted remain knew that remain meant staying in the EU. Nobody knows what kind of brexit people wanted when they voted leave.

Not true. One of the phrases I heard many times in the referendum was "remain and reform" what kind of reform was being spoken about?

Complete guesswork with your figures yet again.

Now you are just being deliberately obtuse. Everything I said is true and there is no guesswork with the one figure I used. If you voted remain it meant we stayed in the EU. Whether "reform" happened or not we stayed in the EU. Thus there was 100% complete clarity on what a vote to remain meant.

In contrast there was no definition as to what leave meant and at various times completely contradictory interpretations were advanced by leave advocates. So nobody knew exactly what leaving would entail and nobody has any details of what leave voters thought they were voting for.

Finally can you give some examples of remain campaigners referring to "remain and reform". It should be easy since you apparently heard it many times.

It was the official labour party position as set out by their leader.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/labourlist.org/2016/04/europe-needs-to-change-but-i-am-voting-to-stay-corbyns-full-speech-on-the-eu/%3famp

Still wilfully not dealing with the main point I made, just picking up the throwaway about "remain and reform". Yes Corbyn said "So the case I’m making is for ‘Remain – and Reform’ in Europe" but did anyone else say that? Even if they did, so what. It doesn't alter the fact that voting remain was a clear decision and voting leave was not. It was a vote for a variety of contradictory claims and none of know what these leave voters actually voted for.

Yes it was a clear decision to remain and reform.... Or not.

As I've said a million times people vote for all manner of reasons in every vote ever. It can never be 100%. 

Cameron the prime minister laid out clearly what leaving would mean.

I'm not sure what were gaining from going over this over and over again. 

Banning voting appears to be the only solution to this.

Banning dumb/self-contradictory options is the only solution, not banning voting.

Banning elections is one way to do that.

Make sure only the smartest people in the world, left wing MPs are able to make decisions.

Another defeat for May:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47245992

xmiles wrote:Another defeat for May:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47245992

It was inevitable when the Brexiteers are divided into two camps.

Ken Clarke’s thoughts on being bound by his parties manifesto. Difficult to argue when you consider how often May has backed away from her win policies.

https://twitter.com/iandunt/status/1096046686806241281?s=21

Doesn't really reflect well on him that he wouldn't bother to read the manifesto.

It was the worst manifesto of all time but still...

Hipster_Nebula wrote:Doesn't really reflect well on him that he wouldn't bother to read the manifesto.

It was the worst manifesto of all time but still...

How would he be expected to read it if he wasn't made aware of it's existence and nobody sent him a a copy?

If we knew about it and had the option to read it, safe to say Ken did Lust.

Hipster_Nebula wrote:Doesn't really reflect well on him that he wouldn't bother to read the manifesto.

It was the worst manifesto of all time but still...

Can you argue with his point though? Why should the Brexit policy it communicated be taken seriously when so many of its other policies have been reversed/ignored.