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Brexit negotiations

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901Brexit negotiations - Page 31 Empty Re: Brexit negotiations on Wed Feb 13 2019, 15:29

Hipster_Nebula

Hipster_Nebula
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
You keep talking about this referendum and referenda in general.

The issues you have with it are universal in all types of election. This is my point.

You would cancel referenda so would you extend that to general and local elections?

902Brexit negotiations - Page 31 Empty Re: Brexit negotiations on Wed Feb 13 2019, 16:15

boltonbonce

boltonbonce
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
Things will get better when we take control.

903Brexit negotiations - Page 31 Empty Re: Brexit negotiations on Wed Feb 13 2019, 16:42

xmiles

xmiles
Jay Jay Okocha
Jay Jay Okocha
@Hipster_Nebula wrote:
@xmiles wrote:
@Hipster_Nebula wrote:There were also variation of thought among those voting remain shock horror.

I'm sure we'd be having the same argument if that side had won (ha ha ha ha ha ha ha) 

Deliberately missing the point.

100% of people who voted remain knew that remain meant staying in the EU. Nobody knows what kind of brexit people wanted when they voted leave.

Not true. One of the phrases I heard many times in the referendum was "remain and reform" what kind of reform was being spoken about?

Complete guesswork with your figures yet again.

Now you are just being deliberately obtuse. Everything I said is true and there is no guesswork with the one figure I used. If you voted remain it meant we stayed in the EU. Whether "reform" happened or not we stayed in the EU. Thus there was 100% complete clarity on what a vote to remain meant.

In contrast there was no definition as to what leave meant and at various times completely contradictory interpretations were advanced by leave advocates. So nobody knew exactly what leaving would entail and nobody has any details of what leave voters thought they were voting for.

Finally can you give some examples of remain campaigners referring to "remain and reform". It should be easy since you apparently heard it many times.

904Brexit negotiations - Page 31 Empty Re: Brexit negotiations on Wed Feb 13 2019, 16:56

wanderlust

wanderlust
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
@Hipster_Nebula wrote:You keep talking about this referendum and referenda in general.

The issues you have with it are universal in all types of election. This is my point.

You would cancel referenda so would you extend that to general and local elections?
There's a difference. In an election people vote for a party based on an agreed and published  manifesto and the party with the most MPs becomes the Government. In the EU referendum we were given a choice between a manifesto i.e. Remain or multiple conflicting manifestos.

In essence the Leave manifesto was we will stay in the SM and CU and we will leave the SM and the CU.

As there has never been another candidate in an election or referendum in history whose manifesto is self-contradictory my view on it can hardly be described as universal.

905Brexit negotiations - Page 31 Empty Re: Brexit negotiations on Wed Feb 13 2019, 19:01

Hipster_Nebula

Hipster_Nebula
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
@wanderlust wrote:
@Hipster_Nebula wrote:You keep talking about this referendum and referenda in general.

The issues you have with it are universal in all types of election. This is my point.

You would cancel referenda so would you extend that to general and local elections?
There's a difference. In an election people vote for a party based on an agreed and published  manifesto and the party with the most MPs becomes the Government. In the EU referendum we were given a choice between a manifesto i.e. Remain or multiple conflicting manifestos.

In essence the Leave manifesto was we will stay in the SM and CU and we will leave the SM and the CU.

As there has never been another candidate in an election or referendum in history whose manifesto is self-contradictory my view on it can hardly be described as universal.

Yes and the parties never go back on manifesto promises or lie during campaigns. There's also never examples of electoral fraud during generals either is there.

All things you've cited as reasons referendums should be cancelled.

906Brexit negotiations - Page 31 Empty Re: Brexit negotiations on Wed Feb 13 2019, 19:11

Hipster_Nebula

Hipster_Nebula
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
@xmiles wrote:
@Hipster_Nebula wrote:
@xmiles wrote:
@Hipster_Nebula wrote:There were also variation of thought among those voting remain shock horror.

I'm sure we'd be having the same argument if that side had won (ha ha ha ha ha ha ha) 

Deliberately missing the point.

100% of people who voted remain knew that remain meant staying in the EU. Nobody knows what kind of brexit people wanted when they voted leave.

Not true. One of the phrases I heard many times in the referendum was "remain and reform" what kind of reform was being spoken about?

Complete guesswork with your figures yet again.

Now you are just being deliberately obtuse. Everything I said is true and there is no guesswork with the one figure I used. If you voted remain it meant we stayed in the EU. Whether "reform" happened or not we stayed in the EU. Thus there was 100% complete clarity on what a vote to remain meant.

In contrast there was no definition as to what leave meant and at various times completely contradictory interpretations were advanced by leave advocates. So nobody knew exactly what leaving would entail and nobody has any details of what leave voters thought they were voting for.

Finally can you give some examples of remain campaigners referring to "remain and reform". It should be easy since you apparently heard it many times.

It was the official labour party position as set out by their leader.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/labourlist.org/2016/04/europe-needs-to-change-but-i-am-voting-to-stay-corbyns-full-speech-on-the-eu/%3famp

907Brexit negotiations - Page 31 Empty Re: Brexit negotiations on Wed Feb 13 2019, 20:37

xmiles

xmiles
Jay Jay Okocha
Jay Jay Okocha
@Hipster_Nebula wrote:
@xmiles wrote:
@Hipster_Nebula wrote:
@xmiles wrote:
@Hipster_Nebula wrote:There were also variation of thought among those voting remain shock horror.

I'm sure we'd be having the same argument if that side had won (ha ha ha ha ha ha ha) 

Deliberately missing the point.

100% of people who voted remain knew that remain meant staying in the EU. Nobody knows what kind of brexit people wanted when they voted leave.

Not true. One of the phrases I heard many times in the referendum was "remain and reform" what kind of reform was being spoken about?

Complete guesswork with your figures yet again.

Now you are just being deliberately obtuse. Everything I said is true and there is no guesswork with the one figure I used. If you voted remain it meant we stayed in the EU. Whether "reform" happened or not we stayed in the EU. Thus there was 100% complete clarity on what a vote to remain meant.

In contrast there was no definition as to what leave meant and at various times completely contradictory interpretations were advanced by leave advocates. So nobody knew exactly what leaving would entail and nobody has any details of what leave voters thought they were voting for.

Finally can you give some examples of remain campaigners referring to "remain and reform". It should be easy since you apparently heard it many times.

It was the official labour party position as set out by their leader.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/labourlist.org/2016/04/europe-needs-to-change-but-i-am-voting-to-stay-corbyns-full-speech-on-the-eu/%3famp

Still wilfully not dealing with the main point I made, just picking up the throwaway about "remain and reform". Yes Corbyn said "So the case I’m making is for ‘Remain – and Reform’ in Europe" but did anyone else say that? Even if they did, so what. It doesn't alter the fact that voting remain was a clear decision and voting leave was not. It was a vote for a variety of contradictory claims and none of know what these leave voters actually voted for.

908Brexit negotiations - Page 31 Empty Re: Brexit negotiations on Wed Feb 13 2019, 22:30

gloswhite

gloswhite
Guðni Bergsson
Guðni Bergsson
Its very clear in my mind what I voted for, and why. No point talking to you or other remainers about it, as you have made your own minds up from day 1, and have worn blinkers ever since.

909Brexit negotiations - Page 31 Empty Re: Brexit negotiations on Wed Feb 13 2019, 22:37

boltonbonce

boltonbonce
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
@gloswhite wrote:Its very clear in my mind what I voted for, and why. No point talking to you or other remainers about it, as you have made your own minds up from day 1, and have worn blinkers ever since.
I gave up arguing about Brexit months ago. I've got better things to do quite frankly. I'm just going to see how it plays out, for good or ill.
Whatever happens, this thread will probably still be going strong in 2025. Shocked

910Brexit negotiations - Page 31 Empty Re: Brexit negotiations on Wed Feb 13 2019, 22:43

xmiles

xmiles
Jay Jay Okocha
Jay Jay Okocha
@gloswhite wrote:Its very clear in my mind what I voted for, and why. No point talking to you or other remainers about it, as you have made your own minds up from day 1, and have worn blinkers ever since.

You are "very clear in my mind what I voted for, and why". So exactly who has been wearing blinkers ever since and ignored all the evidence that has emerged since the referendum?

911Brexit negotiations - Page 31 Empty Re: Brexit negotiations on Wed Feb 13 2019, 22:55

Hipster_Nebula

Hipster_Nebula
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
@xmiles wrote:
@Hipster_Nebula wrote:
@xmiles wrote:
@Hipster_Nebula wrote:
@xmiles wrote:
@Hipster_Nebula wrote:There were also variation of thought among those voting remain shock horror.

I'm sure we'd be having the same argument if that side had won (ha ha ha ha ha ha ha) 

Deliberately missing the point.

100% of people who voted remain knew that remain meant staying in the EU. Nobody knows what kind of brexit people wanted when they voted leave.

Not true. One of the phrases I heard many times in the referendum was "remain and reform" what kind of reform was being spoken about?

Complete guesswork with your figures yet again.

Now you are just being deliberately obtuse. Everything I said is true and there is no guesswork with the one figure I used. If you voted remain it meant we stayed in the EU. Whether "reform" happened or not we stayed in the EU. Thus there was 100% complete clarity on what a vote to remain meant.

In contrast there was no definition as to what leave meant and at various times completely contradictory interpretations were advanced by leave advocates. So nobody knew exactly what leaving would entail and nobody has any details of what leave voters thought they were voting for.

Finally can you give some examples of remain campaigners referring to "remain and reform". It should be easy since you apparently heard it many times.

It was the official labour party position as set out by their leader.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/labourlist.org/2016/04/europe-needs-to-change-but-i-am-voting-to-stay-corbyns-full-speech-on-the-eu/%3famp

Still wilfully not dealing with the main point I made, just picking up the throwaway about "remain and reform". Yes Corbyn said "So the case I’m making is for ‘Remain – and Reform’ in Europe" but did anyone else say that? Even if they did, so what. It doesn't alter the fact that voting remain was a clear decision and voting leave was not. It was a vote for a variety of contradictory claims and none of know what these leave voters actually voted for.

Yes it was a clear decision to remain and reform.... Or not.

As I've said a million times people vote for all manner of reasons in every vote ever. It can never be 100%. 

Cameron the prime minister laid out clearly what leaving would mean.

I'm not sure what were gaining from going over this over and over again. 

Banning voting appears to be the only solution to this.

912Brexit negotiations - Page 31 Empty Re: Brexit negotiations on Thu Feb 14 2019, 10:29

wanderlust

wanderlust
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
Banning dumb/self-contradictory options is the only solution, not banning voting.

913Brexit negotiations - Page 31 Empty Re: Brexit negotiations on Thu Feb 14 2019, 11:01

Hipster_Nebula

Hipster_Nebula
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
Banning elections is one way to do that.

Make sure only the smartest people in the world, left wing MPs are able to make decisions.

914Brexit negotiations - Page 31 Empty Re: Brexit negotiations on Thu Feb 14 2019, 17:49

xmiles

xmiles
Jay Jay Okocha
Jay Jay Okocha

915Brexit negotiations - Page 31 Empty Re: Brexit negotiations on Thu Feb 14 2019, 17:51

wanderlust

wanderlust
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
It was inevitable when the Brexiteers are divided into two camps.

916Brexit negotiations - Page 31 Empty Re: Brexit negotiations on Fri Feb 15 2019, 09:25

Guest


Guest
Ken Clarke’s thoughts on being bound by his parties manifesto. Difficult to argue when you consider how often May has backed away from her win policies.

https://twitter.com/iandunt/status/1096046686806241281?s=21

917Brexit negotiations - Page 31 Empty Re: Brexit negotiations on Fri Feb 15 2019, 10:15

Hipster_Nebula

Hipster_Nebula
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
Doesn't really reflect well on him that he wouldn't bother to read the manifesto.

It was the worst manifesto of all time but still...

918Brexit negotiations - Page 31 Empty Re: Brexit negotiations on Fri Feb 15 2019, 10:32

wanderlust

wanderlust
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
@Hipster_Nebula wrote:Doesn't really reflect well on him that he wouldn't bother to read the manifesto.

It was the worst manifesto of all time but still...
How would he be expected to read it if he wasn't made aware of it's existence and nobody sent him a a copy?

919Brexit negotiations - Page 31 Empty Re: Brexit negotiations on Fri Feb 15 2019, 10:33

Guest


Guest
If we knew about it and had the option to read it, safe to say Ken did Lust.

920Brexit negotiations - Page 31 Empty Re: Brexit negotiations on Fri Feb 15 2019, 10:34

Guest


Guest
@Hipster_Nebula wrote:Doesn't really reflect well on him that he wouldn't bother to read the manifesto.

It was the worst manifesto of all time but still...

Can you argue with his point though? Why should the Brexit policy it communicated be taken seriously when so many of its other policies have been reversed/ignored.

921Brexit negotiations - Page 31 Empty Re: Brexit negotiations on Fri Feb 15 2019, 12:22

Hipster_Nebula

Hipster_Nebula
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
@wanderlust wrote:
@Hipster_Nebula wrote:Doesn't really reflect well on him that he wouldn't bother to read the manifesto.

It was the worst manifesto of all time but still...
How would he be expected to read it if he wasn't made aware of it's existence and nobody sent him a a copy?

He didn't know there would be a manifesto in a general election? Were talking about Ken Clarke not Jared o mara.

922Brexit negotiations - Page 31 Empty Re: Brexit negotiations on Fri Feb 15 2019, 12:25

Hipster_Nebula

Hipster_Nebula
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
T.R.O.Y wrote:
@Hipster_Nebula wrote:Doesn't really reflect well on him that he wouldn't bother to read the manifesto.

It was the worst manifesto of all time but still...

Can you argue with his point though? Why should the Brexit policy it communicated be taken seriously when so many of its other policies have been reversed/ignored.

None of the policies were really going to be enacted as soon as it became clear that this would be a minority gov. That's politics. 

If he doesn't feel he represents the Tory party he should resign from the party. Id welcome more independents in the house anyway so I hope he does.

923Brexit negotiations - Page 31 Empty Re: Brexit negotiations on Fri Feb 15 2019, 13:51

wanderlust

wanderlust
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
T.R.O.Y wrote:If we knew about it and had the option to read it, safe to say Ken did Lust.
Then why did he write "I have never seen this document" then?

924Brexit negotiations - Page 31 Empty Re: Brexit negotiations on Fri Feb 15 2019, 13:59

wanderlust

wanderlust
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
@gloswhite wrote:Its very clear in my mind what I voted for, and why. No point talking to you or other remainers about it, as you have made your own minds up from day 1, and have worn blinkers ever since.
Mate I have no doubt that you and every other Brexiteer is very clear in their mind what they voted for and I am not questioning your or their integrity. 
What I am questioning is what it is that you voted for as some people voted to Leave in order to stay in the Single Market and Customs Union and some people also voted the same way on the understanding that the opposite was the case.

The referendum question was about leaving the EU and can not be construed as meaning "Also leaving the Single Market & Customs Union" as the Leave campaign made a big deal of the benefits of staying in both and half of the Leave voters did so believing that our trade deals and borders would not be changed because that's what they were promised. See post 886 for confirmation.

Out of interest, would you mind sharing which Brexit you voted for?

925Brexit negotiations - Page 31 Empty Re: Brexit negotiations on Fri Feb 15 2019, 14:15

Angry Dad

Angry Dad
Youri Djorkaeff
Youri Djorkaeff
I voted to leave nothing else just leave no deals no money given away just leave and watch the whole rest collapse.

926Brexit negotiations - Page 31 Empty Re: Brexit negotiations on Fri Feb 15 2019, 14:16

Angry Dad

Angry Dad
Youri Djorkaeff
Youri Djorkaeff
Fuck the gov't although i'm a tory i won't vote for this lot next time fucking scum.

927Brexit negotiations - Page 31 Empty Re: Brexit negotiations on Fri Feb 15 2019, 14:18

Angry Dad

Angry Dad
Youri Djorkaeff
Youri Djorkaeff
Labour are even bigger scumbags so where does that leave the pissed off tory voter?

928Brexit negotiations - Page 31 Empty Re: Brexit negotiations on Fri Feb 15 2019, 15:48

Hipster_Nebula

Hipster_Nebula
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
@wanderlust wrote:
@gloswhite wrote:Its very clear in my mind what I voted for, and why. No point talking to you or other remainers about it, as you have made your own minds up from day 1, and have worn blinkers ever since.
Mate I have no doubt that you and every other Brexiteer is very clear in their mind what they voted for and I am not questioning your or their integrity. 
What I am questioning is what it is that you voted for as some people voted to Leave in order to stay in the Single Market and Customs Union and some people also voted the same way on the understanding that the opposite was the case.

The referendum question was about leaving the EU and can not be construed as meaning "Also leaving the Single Market & Customs Union" as the Leave campaign made a big deal of the benefits of staying in both and half of the Leave voters did so believing that our trade deals and borders would not be changed because that's what they were promised. See post 886 for confirmation.

Out of interest, would you mind sharing which Brexit you voted for?

I know I repeat myself a lot but you've posted this quite a few times now.

929Brexit negotiations - Page 31 Empty Re: Brexit negotiations on Fri Feb 15 2019, 15:51

Natasha Whittam

Natasha Whittam
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
Gerry Taggart's header clearly crossed the line, it's a fooking outrage!

930Brexit negotiations - Page 31 Empty Re: Brexit negotiations on Fri Feb 15 2019, 17:06

wanderlust

wanderlust
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
@Hipster_Nebula wrote:
@wanderlust wrote:
@gloswhite wrote:Its very clear in my mind what I voted for, and why. No point talking to you or other remainers about it, as you have made your own minds up from day 1, and have worn blinkers ever since.
Mate I have no doubt that you and every other Brexiteer is very clear in their mind what they voted for and I am not questioning your or their integrity. 
What I am questioning is what it is that you voted for as some people voted to Leave in order to stay in the Single Market and Customs Union and some people also voted the same way on the understanding that the opposite was the case.

The referendum question was about leaving the EU and can not be construed as meaning "Also leaving the Single Market & Customs Union" as the Leave campaign made a big deal of the benefits of staying in both and half of the Leave voters did so believing that our trade deals and borders would not be changed because that's what they were promised. See post 886 for confirmation.

Out of interest, would you mind sharing which Brexit you voted for?

I know I repeat myself a lot but you've posted this quite a few times now.
Merely providing context for the question which I haven't asked before. AD has said which Brexit he voted for and I'm hoping Glos will do the same. My mate who exports machinery voted for the other Brexit and is mightily pissed off he isn't going to get it.

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