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How is the Tory government doing?

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Cajunboy
gloswhite
xmiles
wanderlust
Natasha Whittam
okocha
Norpig
boltonbonce
Sluffy
sunlight
wessy
Ten Bobsworth
Angry Dad
Hipster_Nebula
18 posters

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721How is the Tory government doing? - Page 37 Empty Re: How is the Tory government doing? Tue Aug 11 2020, 17:31

Guest


Guest

Sluffy wrote:
I have no problem whatsoever of investigating what has gone wrong in the two known cases or any others that may arise but unless you know something I don't an error rate on contracts of 0.33% seems amazingly good to me - does it not to you too?

Ok great, good to see you've changed your mind on that - yesterday it was utopian and unrealistic for questioning it.

And no 0.33% error rate sounds good to me - but one thing you'll learn with politics is the devil is in the detail so lets see what happens when the full details are revealed.

722How is the Tory government doing? - Page 37 Empty Re: How is the Tory government doing? Tue Aug 11 2020, 17:51

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin

T.R.O.Y. wrote:
Sluffy wrote:
I have no problem whatsoever of investigating what has gone wrong in the two known cases or any others that may arise but unless you know something I don't an error rate on contracts of 0.33% seems amazingly good to me - does it not to you too?

Ok great, good to see you've changed your mind on that - yesterday it was utopian and unrealistic for questioning it.

And no 0.33% error rate sounds good to me - but one thing you'll learn with politics is the devil is in the detail so lets see what happens when the full details are revealed.

No mate, I've never said or even implied mistakes should not be investigated and learnt from, I've always been extremely keen for work to be constantly audited and accurate throughout my career if you knew anything about me so stop putting your words into my mouth thank you very much.

I had said that emergencies circumstances preclude the time available to do things properly/at a standard you would wish but I've never said they should not be reviewed in retrospect when time does allow in order to learn by them and improve things for the future.

You as I recall implied that the emergency would have to wait until all the required vetting is done to prevent possible mistakes.

That I told you was your political utopia maybe but certainly not the real world.

The Devil is in the detail in most things not just politics but on the face of it all this seems to be one mans crusade and not a major structural failing or rampant corruption from the Conservative government and probably explains the apparent lack of interest from the nations investigative journalists.  

No doubt social media is full of it though!

723How is the Tory government doing? - Page 37 Empty Re: How is the Tory government doing? Tue Aug 11 2020, 17:57

wanderlust

wanderlust
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse

xmiles wrote:As usual post brexit trade talks are going badly in the hands of Liz Truss. She is jeopardising an agreement with Japan over her obsession with cheese even though total annual blue cheese exports to Japan are only worth £102k.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-53737388
The thing that interests me about this is that Truss was trying to get a pro Brexit marketing angle from the negotiations - even though blue cheeses constitute a tiny, tiny part of Japanese imports.
Whilst the EU has already secured a EURO 1billion cut in food tariffs from the Japanese asking for a small cut in UK blue cheese tariffs would have given her a (highly spurious and inaccurate) reason to claim that the UK can get better deals independently than the whole of the EU can get collectively - which as we all know will never ever happen as we have forfeited our purchasing power.
She must think the British people are stupid.

724How is the Tory government doing? - Page 37 Empty Re: How is the Tory government doing? Tue Aug 11 2020, 18:19

Guest


Guest

Sluffy wrote:
You as I recall implied that the emergency would have to wait until all the required vetting is done to prevent possible mistakes.

Honestly, i don't believe that you can take that from this:

T.R.O.Y. wrote:I think the main point here isn't the lack of formal process - that's understandable. But how it's ended up being won by a shell company, whose only credential seems to be a close relationship with a cabinet minister.

I think really you were in such a rush to disagree with me as always you didn't actually think about it.

Now you've realised how mistakes need to be scrutinised to prevent future occurrences you've softened your stance massively.

Glad to see, but just hold your hands up instead of pretending i've said something i haven't.

725How is the Tory government doing? - Page 37 Empty Re: How is the Tory government doing? Tue Aug 11 2020, 19:21

okocha

okocha
El Hadji Diouf
El Hadji Diouf

Liz Truss evidently felt that it needed just a little extra push to confirm that we are top of the league for the most laughed-at nation in the world. No one in their right mind would/could defend this shower of MPs presently running the country.
Embarrassing!

726How is the Tory government doing? - Page 37 Empty Re: How is the Tory government doing? Tue Aug 11 2020, 19:30

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin

T.R.O.Y. wrote:
Sluffy wrote:
You as I recall implied that the emergency would have to wait until all the required vetting is done to prevent possible mistakes.

Honestly, i don't believe that you can take that from this:

T.R.O.Y. wrote:I think the main point here isn't the lack of formal process - that's understandable. But how it's ended up being won by a shell company, whose only credential seems to be a close relationship with a cabinet minister.

I think really you were in such a rush to disagree with me as always you didn't actually think about it.

Now you've realised how mistakes need to be scrutinised to prevent future occurrences you've softened your stance massively.

Glad to see, but just hold your hands up instead of pretending i've said something i haven't.

Oh here we go again.

The remark I made the utopian reference too was what you said much later

The post you quote yourself in above was made at 3.45pm yesterday

What you purposely omitted was the full extent of what you actually said -

T.R.O.Y. wrote:I think the main point here isn't the lack of formal process - that's understandable. But how it's ended up being won by a shell company, whose only credential seems to be a close relationship with a cabinet minister. 

Tender process or not, common sense would say choose a supplier with a track record. This is madness.

I replied at 4.12pm as to why that isn't always possible in emergency situations.

To which at 4.52pm you replied -

T.R.O.Y. wrote:Sorry - are you honestly trying to argue that the government was under so much pressure they had to choose this supplier?

To which I replied at 5.46pm at 5.51pm you replied with this -

T.R.O.Y. wrote:
Sluffy wrote:What other reason do you suggest unless it was blatant corruption?

Incompetence, they clearly didn't do enough research into whether or not this company with no history or experience of delivering PPE had the credentials or quality of manufacturer to do so - and it's not even the first time.

You may think that's acceptable from the government but i do not.

I replied at 6.44pm that in the real world in times of emergencies they simply don't always have the luxury of time on their hands to do everything perfectly as you would wish.

To which you replied at 9.35pm with this -

T.R.O.Y. wrote:Sure, shit does happen. But how much shit has to happen (at tax payer expense) before the incompetence is too much? Personally I’ve had my fill, it’s about the standards you expect to be delivered. And no business I’ve ever worked in would allow for this level of error on such a consistent basis - you’d be out.

And essentially that’s what needs to happen with this government to really move forward as a country (and I’m not just referring to Covid).

So whether you give a fuck or not, I’ll continue to point out their errors - and the holes in your constant defence of them, because that’s what living in a democracy allows me to do - a decent perk to be fair!

To which at 10.18pm I said this -

Sluffy wrote:You don't get it mate, I'm not defending them?

I'm telling you like it is.

You seem to be demanding perfection, that doesn't happen in the real world.

The same civil servants will be putting things out to tender, writing the specs and checking compliance under a Labour government or a Conservative one.

If Labour had won in 2019, they would still have had the same amount of PPE when the virus hit and the same need to acquire more PDQ in competition with the rest of the world.

They would have the same medical advisors and the same information from China to base their decisions on.

Maybe they would have done things differently at the margins but they would have had the same priorities/objectives - save the NHS, save the economy - and have the same lack of testing capabilities and inadequate track and trace system that couldn't cope with the volume of the positive cases that hit us.

They would have needed to create some form of Track and Trace infrastructure, probably encountered the same problems with the telephone aps T and T and would probably started off with a national telephone system, that's proving not to be working so good.

They would have been dealing with a population that grew sick of being in lockdown and the younger generation wanting to go out and enjoy their lives without being encumbered with social distancing and face masks.

Asian youths would still have caught the virus and spread it in their communities because that's how they live in general, in large family groups with elderly relatives.

You would still have the self entitled, I'm going to the beach/down the pub and 'fuck the rules'

There would still have been a massive problem in care homes (every country has had a massive problem with care homes).

They would want to open up the economy again and get kids in school and having to balance that against not having a second wave of the virus.

Conservative and Labour are completely interchangeable when facing Covid, they both would have done by and large similar things at similar times.

They may well have avoided some of the mistakes the Conservatives have but created a few new ones of their own.

A democracy means accepting the will of the people.

The Conservatives have won the last four General Elections, they won the last one less than a year ago with an 80 seat majority.

Just because you don't like the result it doesn't mean it wasn't democratic.

You need to stop waving your deepest red peoples flag and accept they are doing as good/bad as anyone else would be doing in the same position and with the same resources to start with.

I'd be saying the same things as I have been doing if the shoe was on the other foot and Labour was in government now and the Conservatives 'holding them to account'.

Try living in the real world instead of your political utopian one for a change.

So although you did indeed say what you did in the quote you posted of yourself above, you carried on throughout the day contradicting that by in effect everything should have been checked and double checked before the contract be awarded and it was "incompetence" that they were not which to your eyes being symptomatic of a government that had failed and continued to fail which you wanted ousting ASAP!

You can't have it both ways.

You can't have a perfect procurement system when the essence is speed to deal with an emergency that is happing here and now!

I'm far from in a rush to disagree with you, I'm, if anything, far too clinical in my research and analysis of how to reply to you - knowing you half play a game as well as stating your points from your personal political standpoint.

I give you the respect of a fair and decent reply nevertheless.

So no I didn't take what I said from your early day post, I took from all you actually said subsequent to it.

And I've always known mistakes need to be examined to what happened and why, and how they can be prevented in the future - I'd even wager I was doing those very same things in my work career even before you were born - so no I wasn't softening my stance as I had never taken such a stance in the first place!

And finally I've no problem admitting when I am wrong, but I simply am not guilty of the things you accuse me of in your post above.

727How is the Tory government doing? - Page 37 Empty Re: How is the Tory government doing? Tue Aug 11 2020, 19:42

boltonbonce

boltonbonce
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse

Please make it stop.
How is the Tory government doing? - Page 37 Giphy.gif?cid=ecf05e476dc0e6da900b528b44ecf09d38475874a9295d12&rid=giphy

728How is the Tory government doing? - Page 37 Empty Re: How is the Tory government doing? Tue Aug 11 2020, 19:50

Guest


Guest

Big difference in levels of checks between going through a full tender process and checking whether or not what will be delivered matches your own governments requirements.

As you well know Sluffy.

Trying to bore everyone to death by reposting half a thread in one comment won’t disguise the facts here.

As always your obsessions with disagreeing and never admitting fault tie you up in knots you can’t untangle.

Nothing else for me to say on this, so don’t expect a reply to your inevitable essay response.

729How is the Tory government doing? - Page 37 Empty Re: How is the Tory government doing? Tue Aug 11 2020, 20:02

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin

I wish it would too - hence my remark 'Oh here we go again'.

Games are played on here by a few, they do it for there own amusement and don't think/care about how it effects the site and everyone else.

The debate on what seems to have turned out to be nothing more than yet another social media 'conspiracy' story had run it's course but clearly not for one of us - hence my exasperation and clearly yours too.

Unfortunately it won't be the last time, I think we all know that by now.

730How is the Tory government doing? - Page 37 Empty Re: How is the Tory government doing? Tue Aug 11 2020, 20:09

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin

T.R.O.Y. wrote:Big difference in levels of checks between going through a full tender process and checking whether or not what will be delivered matches your own governments requirements.

As you well know Sluffy.

I've fully answered that already.

T.R.O.Y. wrote:Trying to bore everyone to death by reposting half a thread in one comment won’t disguise the facts here.  

The fact was that I didn't say or do anything you said I had - I more than  suspected the post was a deliberate troll on your part and I even referred to that in my reply.

T.R.O.Y. wrote:As always your obsessions with disagreeing and never admitting fault tie you up in knots you can’t untangle.

Eh???

What does the even mean?

T.R.O.Y. wrote:Nothing else for me to say on this, so don’t expect a reply to your inevitable essay response.

Thank God for that.

731How is the Tory government doing? - Page 37 Empty Re: How is the Tory government doing? Tue Aug 11 2020, 20:35

boltonbonce

boltonbonce
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse

Group hug?

732How is the Tory government doing? - Page 37 Empty Re: How is the Tory government doing? Tue Aug 11 2020, 20:37

Guest


Guest

Sluffy wrote:
The debate on what seems to have turned out to be nothing more than yet another social media 'conspiracy' story.


It was a conspiracy theory that that the government wasted hundreds of millions buying PPE the NHS couldn’t use from a shell company?

If you don’t want people to disagree with you, stop writing outright lies.

733How is the Tory government doing? - Page 37 Empty Re: How is the Tory government doing? Tue Aug 11 2020, 20:54

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin

T.R.O.Y. wrote:
Sluffy wrote:
The debate on what seems to have turned out to be nothing more than yet another social media 'conspiracy' story.


It was a conspiracy theory that that the government wasted hundreds of millions buying PPE the NHS couldn’t use from a shell company?

If you don’t want people to disagree with you, stop writing outright lies.

Oh dear God!

As I've said - didn't take long did it!

Sluffy wrote:Games are played on here by a few, they do it for there own amusement and don't think/care about how it effects the site and everyone else.

Unfortunately it won't be the last time, I think we all know that by now.

You've only just agreed this at 5.31pm ffs!

T.R.O.Y. wrote:
Sluffy wrote:
I have no problem whatsoever of investigating what has gone wrong in the two known cases or any others that may arise but unless you know something I don't an error rate on contracts of 0.33% seems amazingly good to me - does it not to you too?

And no 0.33% error rate sounds good to me - but one thing you'll learn with politics is the devil is in the detail so lets see what happens when the full details are revealed.

Sluffy wrote:I refer you to this -

32. As a result of this enhanced engagement with the market, over 600 contracts for PPE have now been concluded with almost 200 different suppliers; these range in value from under £1 million to over £100 million, amounting to some £5.5 billion in total.

Three 'questionable' contract awarded (they've yet to be shown to have done anything wrong) and two known contract mistakes - this one and the 'Turkey' one equate to a 1 in 300 chance or 0.33% error rate.

And you say I'm the one who ties himself up in knots!!!

Now jog on troll.

734How is the Tory government doing? - Page 37 Empty Re: How is the Tory government doing? Tue Aug 11 2020, 21:10

Guest


Guest

This is getting odd now.

You’re just posting random chunks of posts with no relation to the point your making. That in no way proves your claim that the gov’s bungled purchase of PPE is a conspiracy theory.

Just seems your deflecting to be honest.

735How is the Tory government doing? - Page 37 Empty Re: How is the Tory government doing? Tue Aug 11 2020, 21:36

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin

T.R.O.Y. wrote:This is getting odd now.

You’re just posting random chunks of posts with no relation to the point your making. That in no way proves your claim that the gov’s bungled purchase of PPE is a conspiracy theory.

Just seems your deflecting to be honest.

Mate, people know you are trolling.

They don't want to suffer it.

We've had a debate, we've done shell companies (I didn't rise to your bate on your previous post!), we've done the validity of the government's action under emergency powers. we've done the authenticity of the information contained within the letter government's letter, we've agreed nothings actually be proven to be even wrong in respect of the three 'odd' looking contracts highlighted by the 'fox' killer with a bee in his bonnet who is behind the judicial review.

We've gone on and agreed we only know of two cases were mistakes (for whatever reason - our fault or theirs) have happened.

We've agreed that over 600 contracts have been awarded and if only two of them had issues that amounted to just 0.33% error rate.

We both agreed that was good ffs!

You've been suspiciously quiet when I've consistently pointed out that the national press haven't been all over this - I wonder why?  

I also suspect that's because they've not found anything much in the of substance in the story - otherwise they would all be having it on their front pages!

We came to an end where we both were seemingly in agreement with but could you let it end?

Oh no you most certainly could not!

You first had to put words in my mouth I hadn't said, then you tried to make out I got the wrong end of the stick with something you said, when it wasn't like that at all, then going back on what you had agreed earlier that there didn't seem to be even a story in this now you've got right back to the beginning claiming the governments bugled everything with PPE's.

It's clear what your game is.

It's not wanted on here.

You don't seem to want to be here for any other reason but to troll mainly me.

The times up on that.

It's gone too far for the last time.

Stop the games or go play somewhere else.

736How is the Tory government doing? - Page 37 Empty Re: How is the Tory government doing? Tue Aug 11 2020, 21:45

Guest


Guest

You seem to be taking issue with the term ‘shell company’? That’s what it is, nothing illegal or conspiratorial about that.

I don’t know what your issue is, all I’ve said is we should scrutinise mistakes like this to improve the process. Sounds like common sense to me.

If you want to dismiss that as utopian or unrealistic or even a conspiracy theory - you can, but I’m going to point out your talking bollocks. Calling me a troll for doing so is as paper thin as your arguments.

737How is the Tory government doing? - Page 37 Empty Re: How is the Tory government doing? Tue Aug 11 2020, 22:03

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin

T.R.O.Y. wrote:You seem to be taking issue with the term ‘shell company’? That’s what it is, nothing illegal or conspiratorial about that.

I don’t know what your issue is, all I’ve said is we should scrutinise mistakes like this to improve the process. Sounds like common sense to me.

If you want to dismiss that as utopian or unrealistic or even a conspiracy theory - you can, but I’m going to point out your talking bollocks. Calling me a troll for doing so is as paper thin as your arguments.

You don't know when to stop do you?

We did shell companies way back on page 23 and not a mention more about it until your last post, I wonder why?

I've never said other than mistakes should be examined and learned from - you could even say my whole career was built around that cornerstone but you seem to want to make out I'm set against any such thing, I wonder why?

You are trolling - there's no question about it.

I gave you a final warning.

I'll let this one go but not the next.

Try me if you doubt it.

738How is the Tory government doing? - Page 37 Empty Re: How is the Tory government doing? Tue Aug 11 2020, 22:10

Guest


Guest

I mention shell companies because you suggested it was bait. I don’t know why you’re threatening me, if you accuse me of baiting you I have to correct it. I was done with the whole thing to be honest, it seemed we’d reached an agreement that it was right to be investigated.

Then you started claiming it was all a social media conspiracy - again, I’m not going to let that go. It needs correcting because it’s a lie.

739How is the Tory government doing? - Page 37 Empty Re: How is the Tory government doing? Tue Aug 11 2020, 22:23

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin

T.R.O.Y. wrote:I mention shell companies because you suggested it was bait. I don’t know why you’re threatening me, if you accuse me of baiting you I have to correct it. I was done with the whole thing to be honest, it seemed we’d reached an agreement that it was right to be investigated.

Then you started claiming it was all a social media conspiracy - again, I’m not going to let that go. It needs correcting because it’s a lie.

Well that's clearly not true, is it!

I said is was bait AFTER you had posted it the first time - clearly as 'bait' to get me to 'bite'.

You know that thing that trolls do!

Anyway Mr TROY clearly doesn't know when to stop and has been given the rest of the evening off.

The next time, if there is a next time, it will be considerably more until he learns that the site is bigger than him.

740How is the Tory government doing? - Page 37 Empty Re: How is the Tory government doing? Tue Aug 11 2020, 23:12

wanderlust

wanderlust
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse

"Mr Troy" was in the exact same place i was/am - questioning your occasional dubious logic which appears in the midst of a diatribe in response to every post you don't like or disagrees with you.
It's a problem because some people like to debate issues dare I say "intellectually" and generally speaking,  folk who debate things "intellectually" recognise that ideas are just what it says on the tin i.e. ideas and nothing more - which makes it permissible to put forward an idea - to see what folk think about it - without necessarily holding the viewpoint that the idea represents. Why? Because if you understand where other people are coming from, you can better understand your own opinion and why you hold it. It ain't a bad thing.
I think you takes things too personally. You have some very valid opinions and perspectives and sometimes they shine out even though you often bury them in lengthy tomes which occasionally are irrelevant and don't reinforce the point you are making but despite that, what you are trying to say is important and interesting - if only you'd present it differently - because a chat room for like-minded people, albeit from a range of backgrounds isn't a competition.
We all need to look at ourselves and decide whether or not we want a place where we can talk bullshit with people who may or may not be like us including folk offering a completely different perspective. Personally, I'm all for it as the folk on here are generally considerate, broad-minded and eager to learn about new shit. I've certainly learned a lot about slippers.
So I think you should unban TROY, try to understand TROY's perspective and communicate in an appropriate way - hoping that he will reciprocate the respect for your posts.
I'm not suggesting that we should all address each other in a Victorian manner (Sir! Perchance there is something amiss in the account you describe?) although a bit more respect for other folk's opinions - and their right to hold them wouldn't go amiss if we are to move on.
Do you really have to get upset with TROY's opinion? Agree to disagree problem solved and we won't lose another valued contributor to the tapestry of diverse opinion and interest appearing on these pages.

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