How is the Tory government doing?

I agree Cummings has an agenda and has probably been waiting for his chance to get his revenge but if only half of this is true then it still shows that the Government handled the first lockdown very badly.

Boris suggesting Chris Whitty should inject him with Coronavirus live on TV and having chickenpox parties shows how little they understood what was going on.

Norpig wrote:I agree Cummings has an agenda and has probably been waiting for his chance to get his revenge but if only half of this is true then it still shows that the Government handled the first lockdown very badly.

Boris suggesting Chris Whitty should inject him with Coronavirus live on TV and having chickenpox parties shows how little they understood what was going on.

I'd say a lot more than half of it IS true, I'd go as far as to say most of it is true BUT and I emphises 'BUT', it is how you 'tell' the story that influences how others 'hear' it.

Forget about Johnson, he's the red herring if you will (at least at the outset of the pandemic) you need to see the picture behind all of this and it seems to go like this -

We truly believed (contrary to the many arguements I'd had on here with the usual pathological Tory haters!) that we were well prepared for a pandemic -

"Dominic Cummings is right to suggest there was a misplaced confidence that the UK was well prepared for a pandemic.

As it was unfolding, officials were publicly speaking about how strong our infectious disease surveillance and protection systems were.

That’s not surprising. Just a few months before, the UK had been ranked as the second best prepared country globally. That confidence, as he says, turned out to be “completely hollow”.

Some of that is because that plan was based on the wrong virus - flu not coronavirus".

https://www.ghsindex.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/2019-Global-Health-Security-Index.pdf
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-politics-57245479/page/3

The second thing was when we did get some idea that the virus was on the way and we couldn't stop it the thinking at the time is that we either let it hit us and take one big wave by September or do the lockdown stuff and spread it out until the following January (nearly a year later).

The thinking was if it was going to hit and we couldn't stop it then best to get it over and done with because Wuhan type national lockdown would cost a fortune and piss people off.

It was only when (just a day or two later) REAL info rather than the stuff they had been modeling on China's data, showed that we had hughly underestimated how infectious the virus was and that it was going to overwhelm the NHS as we are seeing today as happened in India now.

Nobody knew this was the real state of affairs so I can certainly understand the thinking at the time about let us take the first wave on the chin and get it over with, type thinking.

It's only looking back it retrospect that we can now see all the wrong decisions that were made at the time.

Cummings is clearly 'personalising' the narrative to settle his score with Boris, Carrie Symonds and Hancock.

Maybe they are all a waste of space but even if they had not been there, the thinking and the actions that were taken (based on the info at the time) may well have been by large exactly the same, whoever would have been PM at the time.

Sluffy wrote:Seeing our country had decided to give us Corbyn and Johnson as a choice for PM only the year before, then as the old saying goes we got what we deserved.

If that doesn't open people's eyes over politics on here then I guess nothing will.

Just seen this from what Cummings had said earlier today.

"Rebecca Long Bailey's final question is about whether the wrong people were in the wrong jobs to deal with the pandemic.

Cummings says the crisis raises profound questions about a political system that gives people a choice between Jeremy Corbyn and Boris Johnson.

He says any system that gives a choice between two people like that is obviously a system that has gone "terribly wrong".

There are so many people who could have done a better job than those two he says.

He found himself it "completely crazy" that he himself was in such an important position because he is "not smart".

It is "completely crackers" that he and Boris Johnson were in these prominent positions.

It was "lions led by donkeys" with great people on the ground but the leadership let people down on the front line".

Posted at 11:20
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-politics-57245479/page/2

Fwiw my view at the time was that we should have had a coalition government in order to deal solely with the pandemic, using the best people we had and should have shelved all the politics (both internal and party) until Covid was beaten.

Sluffy wrote:Being serious for a minute though, you've got to sort out the truth from the spin with Cummings - he's got his own personal agenda in play here - he's the one who looked the whole nation in the eye and told us a big fat lie over Barnard Castle - and never even blinked when doing so.

Posted at 13:42
Cummings: I had to move my family due to security threats

Luke Evans asks Mr Cummings about his "infamous trip" to Barnard Castle, and asks where he draws the line between his own responsibility and how he conducts himself in government.

Cummings says that whole episode was a major disaster for the government" and for policy.

He says in the autumn of 2019 he had to move out of his house due to security threats for six weeks.

"On 28 February when I was dealing with the Covid problem I was down in Westminster when my wife called and said there was a gang of people outside saying they were going to break into the house and kill everybody inside, she was alone in the house at the time", he says.

13:44
It had already been decided I would move out of London - Cummings

Dominic Cummings says on 22 March there was a story about a fake quote from him which said he was "quite happy for everyone to die, which led to further problems".

He says it had already been decide that he was going to move back out of London regardless of the Covid rules.

"Because of this we kept the whole thing quiet," he says.

He agreed with the prime minister to stonewall the story due to the security concerns.

He says lots of the media stories were wrong, including reports police had spoken to him about Covid rules as they had only spoken to him for security reasons.

13:49
Rose garden press conference a 'total disaster'

Dominic Cummings says the prime minister was under political pressure and he had to explain something, which led to the press conference in the No 10 rose garden.

"What I said was true but I left out the crucial part of it all and the whole thing was a total disaster," he says.

He says it was a terrible misjudgment not to explain the situation and it undermined public confidence.

13:54
'I am extremely sorry for the whole thing' - Cummings

Asked why he did not apologise during the rose garden press conference, Dominic Cummings says that he thought, for the reasons he has explained, his behaviour was reasonable at the time.

"The truth at the time was, no, I wasn't sorry for moving them out of London."

"I thought it was the right thing to do but I was trapped in only telling part of the story."

"Obviously I am extremely sorry about the way the whole thing worked out," he says.

He adds he had to move his family out of the house twice further due to problems.

13:55
Cummings: I thought 'I might die'

Jeremy Hunt asks why Cummings moved his family back to London if he was so worried about the threat to their personal safety.

Cummings says he had been lying in bed in Durham "thinking I might die".

"I was extremely ill" he says and "could hardly walk 50 metres".

He says if it had been up to "him, he would have preferred his wife and child to stay in Durham but his wife would not agree to this because she was so worried about his health.

"The PM had literally nearly just died", he says, and he returned to London with his family because he was trying to do the right thing.

13:58
Cummings asked why he didn't apologise before now?

Cummings says stories about him subsequently leaving London in the wake of the trip are "categorically false".

Asked why he has not said all this before, he says it didn't "seem like a sensible thing to do" whilst he was still in post - and didn't want to draw attention to himself after that.


...yeah right!!!

Analysis

Leila Nathoo
BBC political correspondent

14:18
Barnard Castle trip apology not enough to restore Cummings' credibility

Dominic Cummings said he was revealing a big missing piece of the puzzle in his explanation of his infamous lockdown trip to Durham – security threats against his family – because, long after leaving government, today was the day to get "the whole terrible thing out".

He admitted the initial handling and version of the story – with his notorious press conference in the Downing Street rose garden - had been disastrous.

He said "pottering on the road for 30 miles" - the trip he said he made to test his eyesight - has seemed reasonable at the time, given that he was about to drive hundreds of miles from Durham to London.

But for many of his detractors – a belated explanation, an apology for the ‘whole debacle’ plus digging in over the subsequent drive to Barnard Castle – won’t be enough to restore his credibility.

Cummings is still going! Been about 5 hours now, he's now said Boris is unfit to be PM.

Norpig wrote:Cummings is still going! Been about 5 hours now, he's now said Boris is unfit to be PM.

Well I don't think anyone really believes otherwise.

Problem is though the Tory party made him leader and the choice given to the country was him or Corbyn (who of course the Labour Party - plus Unions) had voted for him to be the leader of their party.

Johnson won a two horse race simply because he was seen by many (me included) to be the least worst.

I guess it probably wouldn't real matter in normal years but of course Covid turned the world upside down.

We simply had Bojo as PM when we need another Churchill.

I know I'm blowing my own trumpet but I said at the time and repeat yet again we should have had a coalition government and thus the best people available to us when the virus struck and probably just as important by taking party politics out of the equation but of course we couldn't because Corbyn had refused to step down after the election defeat and he and his mates desperately tried to get his protoge Long-Bailey to succeed him (with the bulk of the previous generation of moderate Labour politicians having already left the parliamentary party because they couldn't work with Corbyn or his ideology). What was the point in bringing in the Labour party when those in charge were lame ducks who were going to be replaced in the weeks ahead by their own party?

The damage was done long before Boris ever became PM with (on the Tory side of the fence) Cameron holding the totally unecessary Brexit referendum simply to silence the Euro-sceptics in his party - that went well didn't it!!!

People still can't grasp poltics is a game but unfortunately the game does effect us all directly.

The world would be a much better place without politics and religion - but people use both as a means to gain and keep power.

It really is as simple as that.

I particularly liked the bits about Hancock which backed up the senior civil servant's comments questioning his honesty and credibility.

Taiwan and NZ (amongst others) provided the UK with a clear, decisive guide as to the best way to minimise the risks to their citizens. We had our heads in the sand for so long..

There is a stubborn arrogance in our government that the UK is "superior/world-beating". Does this derive from the way our elite is educated?

wanderlust wrote:I particularly liked the bits about Hancock which backed up the senior civil servant's comments questioning his honesty and credibility.

Interesting, have you got a link to what was said and which civil servant said it because I would have thought not only it would be very unlikely for any senior civil servant to have said something like that on the record and that if they actually had they would likely be looking to face prosecutuion under the Official Secrets Act which they would have signed and been bound by.

Lovely summation of the key points on the BBC website:

Thousands of people died needlessly as a result of government mistakes in the handling of the coronavirus pandemic, Dominic Cummings has said.


The PM's former top aide said Boris Johnson was "unfit for the job", claiming he had ignored scientific advice and wrongly delayed lockdowns.


He also claimed Matt Hancock should have been fired for lying - something denied by the health secretary.
"Tens of thousands of people died, who didn't need to die," Mr Cummings added.


At a marathon seven hour evidence session, the former Downing Street insider painted a picture of policy failure, dithering and a government that had no useful plan for handling a pandemic.


He told MPs: "The truth is that senior ministers, senior officials, senior advisers like me fell disastrously short of the standards that the public has a right to expect of its government in a crisis like this."

Pretty much everything I and others have been saying all along.

It will now be interesting to see if all those people who defended Cummings when he was accused of - and in my eyes proven to have manipulated the Brexit outcome (and we all know who they are) will now imply that Cummings is being manipulative?

Of course they will!

I assume you've been drinking yet again!

What on Earth are you on about this time?

For a start I assume your comments about defending Cummings over Brexit are aimed at me?

If so then go and find me just one quote where I've said that...

...don't bother wasting your time as you won'tfind one because I've never been arsed about the Brexit arguement or what part Cummings did or didn't play in it.

You're the one who voted for it remember - not me!!!

As for the BBC quotes of what Cummings said today...so what?

If you look back up the thread to earlier on I even posted that I don't doubt much of what he states is true - although I did say the way he paints the picture can put a completely different spin on what he wants us to believe from how things actually were.

This is the man who lied to the nation over Barnard Castle remember - so why should we believe everything he tells us now?

Mistakes did happen, people died needlessly as a result of them, Johnson wasn't the leader we needed at the time - I don't believe I ever claimed otherwise. However we were stuck with who the PM was at the time the pandemic struck and every country has made mistakes along the way with Covid - the world simply hasn't had the need to deal with something like this before.

Did Hancock lie - we only have Cummings word - let's see him back it up with facts before we go out and lynch him shall we?

Also here are some other words off the BBC to ponder upon (not that you ever do!) -

The relationship between Mr Cummings and Mr Johnson is bitter, and broken.
The former adviser's suggestion now, that the prime minister is not fit for office, is both extraordinary but not, in fact, surprising given how toxic it became.
And remember, Mr Cummings' own reputation is not stain free.
He had a reputation for picking a fight in an empty room, as hated by some in Westminster as he was loyally followed by a tight tribe.
And today, he displayed precisely why some of the prime minister's old allies were appalled that he hired him in the first place.
Their fear back then? Mr Cummings' desire to wield influence would trump loyalty every time.
Lastly, looking back, how does the former adviser himself justify helping put Mr Johnson into No 10 when he quite clearly believed he was flawed?
In the short term, the government is unlikely to do anything other than brush off the claims.
But whatever the true balance of Dominic Cummings' motivations, the multiple very public accusations of failure can't be dismissed out of hand.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-57263180

Plus these are a couple of the front pages today - clearly they believe Cummings had his own personal agenda for saying what he did...!


"Yes, mistakes were made but this was pure revenge." That's how the Daily Express sums up the "marathon testimony". It reports that Mr Johnson's allies have "savaged" Mr Cummings in response, and that he has been branded "vengeful and embittered".


Daily Telegraph readers are met with the changing facial expressions of the prime minister's former top aide, Dominic Cummings, on its front page, as he made a series of explosive claims about mistakes made by the government during the Covid pandemic. The paper says Mr Cummings was "taking his revenge". An unnamed adviser to a cabinet minister tells the paper he was "quite selective on what he remembered" and suggested that the public would see him "as bitter". The paper says the government "will attempt to fight back" against the claims today, with Mr Hancock due to answer an urgent question in the House of Commons. Downing Street has ruled out an imminent reshuffle, the paper adds.

PS - I'm still waiting for your link to the "senior civil servant" comments questioning Hancocks honesty?
If it helps Sir Mark Sidwell is the person Cummings mentioned but we only have Cummings word he did - and Cummings now admits he lied to the entire nation over Barnard Castle!

Hope your hangover isn't too bad when you wake up sometime tomorrow!!!

Love seeing the Telegraph and Express squirming despite Starmer failing to take full advantage of the twisted firestarter's testimony.

Hancock is a liar? Boris is unfit to be PM? (paper monitor?) Tens of thousands dead thanks to this government's incompetence? 75 million Turks moving to Britain? Give the NHS an extra £350 million a week?

Warm your hands on whichever Cummingsism you choose folks.

The most damning thing was the confirmation of issues we already knew to be true, especially the failure of policy and honesty on care homes.

okocha wrote:The most damning thing was the confirmation of issues we already knew to be true, especially the failure of policy and honesty on care homes.

You mean sending 25 thousand elderly people to care homes all over the country without being tested for Covid when they left hospital?

And then claiming they were doing everything they could to protect the elderly and vulnerable?

Hancock currently in full denial mode at Westminster as expected.
Boris backing him for now - he has no choice - but will probably wait to see how it pans out in the media and polls before deciding his fate.

okocha wrote:The most damning thing was the confirmation of issues we already knew to be true, especially the failure of policy and honesty on care homes.

From Hancock today -

17:36
Early testing wasn't possible, says Hancock

Sky News' Beth Rigby asks the health secretary if it is correct that he said in March 2020 hospital-to-care home testing would take place but that didn't turn out to be true because the testing capacity wasn't in place.

"My recollection of events is that I committed to delivering that testing for people going from hospitals into care homes," Hancock replies.

"I then went away to build the testing capacity and then delivered on the commitment I made.

He says testing "wasn't possible" at first because the capacity wasn't there.

"I'm very proud that we built that testing capacity," he adds.


If you want an independent view about this -


17:38
Dr Jenny Harries (chief executive of the UK Health Security Agency) says that looking at the evidence the discharge from hospital "was actually a very tiny proportional cause" of cases.

She says testing of staff and residents has had a huge impact.


(Fwiw the problem with Covid deaths in care homes was because no one knew about the practice of how agency staff opperated as they were the main care giving staff providers.

They apparently work shifts at multiple care homes and were the ones (unknowingly) spreading Covid from care home to care home).

Once this was understood and care home staff including agency workers started to be tested, care home deaths significantly dropped.

Unfortunately that was too late for the many that died.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-57265134

In fact she stated that earlier on in the briefing -

17:29
Did Hancock protect care homes?

The BBC's Laura Kuenssberg asks if, following Dominic Cummings' evidence yesterday, Hancock can say he did protect care homes.

"We worked as hard as we could to protect people who live in care homes," replies Hancock.

He says that in order to test people leaving hospitals and going into care homes, the government had to first build testing capacity.

He says setting the 100,000 tests a day target was "very effective" at building that capacity, and enabled the government to introduce the policy of testing people going into care homes.

Harries adds that the data is complex but their research shows that people going from hospitals to care homes was not "the majority route of entry" and that cases were most likely to come through community transmission, such as carers.

Hancock's rhetoric was laughable today.

Noticeably for the first time he didn't use his PR strapline about putting "a protection shield around care homes" so it looks like that particular well-rehearsed mantra has finally been put out of it's misery - the scriptwriters will be working overtime to come up with a new catchy phrase.
Then he avoided answering all direct questions about what he is accused of and was ambiguous in his responses.

When he said the government was protecting care homes did he expect the nation to assume that in fact it wasn't actually happening as he stated but that they would be doing in the future i.e. when they had the capacity to do so? Nobody I know assumed that. We all thought that when he said they were protecting care homes that they were actually doing it, not starting to build the requisite capacity to do it.

And if, as he says now, early testing wasn't possible, why didn't he tell the nation the truth at the time? All the care home workers, families of the dead and dying, healthcare professional bodies and others who were saying at the time it was a disaster were completely disregarded as a result of his grandstanding.

Then there's this business of his claims about achieving the targets soon after. We now know that they weren't achieved and that the actual numbers were manipulated for his soundbites.
As I and others pointed out at the time, the magical 100,000 he claimed was the number of testing kits distributed not the number of tests actually done - but he didn't say that to the British people did he?
Let's face it - he tried to pass off aspirational targets as being achieved and in my book, that's a liar.
Fact is Hancock is a liar and a conman whose only interest is in Matt Hancock PLC and we deserve better. This is after all the man who backed Remain, then backed Leave, then said No Deal was not an option, then backed No Deal then backed a deal.

Hopefully he won't get away with it when the actual inquiry happens if he's still around then - although Boris has already kicked that particular can down the road along with the national debt repayment issue and anything else that may affect his popularity.

It's really funny how every time the shit really hits the fan and Boris should be on our TV screens giving us a full and comprehensive explanation about WTF is really going on, he takes himself off to some factory or other, puts on a white coat, mask and protective goggles, acts the dumb buffoon as usual and leaves his HOUSING Minister, FFS, (Robert Jenrik) to answer all the awkward questions on the morning news programmes.
I can't stand Jenrik, he's smarmy and irritating but I do feel really sorry for him. He's by far and away the best person they have who can act as a Government spokesman and answer awkward questions by not answering them at all and waffling on about something completely different. Because of this he gets lumbered with this kind of shit all the time.
Unfortunately for Hancock I think that once Cummings produces his assorted proof documents he will be dead in the water. Even having Sluffy in his corner making excuses for his incompetence won't be enough to save him.

wanderlust wrote:Hancock's rhetoric was laughable today.

Noticeably for the first time he didn't use his PR strapline about putting "a protection shield around care homes" so it looks like that particular well-rehearsed mantra has finally been put out of it's misery - the scriptwriters will be working overtime to come up with a new catchy phrase.
Then he avoided answering all direct questions about what he is accused of and was ambiguous in his responses.

When he said the government was protecting care homes did he expect the nation to assume that in fact it wasn't actually happening as he stated but that they would be doing in the future i.e. when they had the capacity to do so? Nobody I know assumed that. We all thought that when he said they were protecting care homes that they were actually doing it, not starting to build the requisite capacity to do it.

And if, as he says now, early testing wasn't possible, why didn't he tell the nation the truth at the time? All the care home workers, families of the dead and dying, healthcare professional bodies and others who were saying at the time it was a disaster were completely disregarded as a result of his grandstanding.

Then there's this business of his claims about achieving the targets soon after. We now know that they weren't achieved and that the actual numbers were manipulated for his soundbites.
As I and others pointed out at the time, the magical 100,000 he claimed was the number of testing kits distributed not the number of tests actually done - but he didn't say that to the British people did he?
Let's face it - he tried to pass off aspirational targets as being achieved and in my book, that's a liar.
Fact is Hancock is a liar and a conman whose only interest is in Matt Hancock PLC and we deserve better. This is after all the man who backed Remain, then backed Leave, then said No Deal was not an option, then backed No Deal then backed a deal.

Hopefully he won't get away with it when the actual inquiry happens if he's still around then - although Boris has already kicked that particular can down the road along with the national debt repayment issue and anything else that may affect his popularity.

Not like you to show such prejudice and hatred towards the Tory party and its leaders based on no facts whatsoever.

Oh wait...yes it is!!!

I guess you've been drinking again haven't you!

Unless you believe everybody is in on the conspiracy then how do you explain the data from Harris which shows the deaths in care homes didn't result from hospital discharges but from agency carers working practice of doing shifts at multiple homes throughout the working weeks?

Seems that the directive to send the old and frail waiting to die in a hospital bed back to their care homes in order to free up the beds for the expected Covid cases, was well meant and intended to be safe - indeed Harris's data shows it actually was in the main - what was not taken into the equation was how care homes relied so much on agency workers and that those agency workers worked shifts at more than one home during their normal working week.

Unfortunately it was a factor that was unknown about when the decision was made - Harris's data shows Covid was not imported to the care homes from the hospitals but arrived from casual staff who almost certainly didn't know they were infected.

As a man who voted for Leave then has bitched and whined constantly ever since that we should have voted for Remain and being someone who is prepared to twist yourself inside out in an attempt to avoid admitting you were ever wrong about anything ever, then you and Hancock seem to have a great deal in common!

Takes one to know one I guess!