HomeTo be honest, I find that even more concerning if they truly believed there was no chance they’d need to National lockdown again. Sheer incompetence I’m afraid.
How is the Tory government doing?
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222 Re: How is the Tory government doing? Sun Nov 01 2020, 18:19
Sluffy
Admin
T.R.O.Y. wrote:To be honest, I find that even more concerning if they truly believed there was no chance they’d need to National lockdown again. Sheer incompetence I’m afraid.
I don't know if they truly did - France, Spain, Germany all were further along the second wave than we were, all of them have said they didn't want national lockdowns and all gone down the local lockdown instead and only this week France and Germany have gone into national lockdowns (I guess Italy will also soon enough?).
So when 'they' rejected Sage recommendations other than shutting the pubs at ten, I don't believe they though national lockdown mark two was really a possibility at that point.
Doesn't really matter what I think I know but it seems reasonable to me that they (France and Germany also) were not expecting to go into national lockdowns - but just weeks later they and us are.
Damned if you do, damned if you don't type thing - could you just imagine what shit would have been said at the time if they did go into a national lockdown a month back and France and Germany (in a far worse state than us) not!
223 Re: How is the Tory government doing? Sun Nov 01 2020, 18:26
Guest
Guest
You don’t think they thought it was a possibility, even though SAGE were recommending it? Doesn’t really add up to me.
Criticising Starmer for suggesting it; and then doing it ten days later is just another sign that there’s no plan and overarching strategy behind this response, and we’re all paying for that incompetence.
Criticising Starmer for suggesting it; and then doing it ten days later is just another sign that there’s no plan and overarching strategy behind this response, and we’re all paying for that incompetence.
224 Re: How is the Tory government doing? Sun Nov 01 2020, 20:23
Sluffy
Admin
T.R.O.Y. wrote:You don’t think they thought it was a possibility, even though SAGE were recommending it? Doesn’t really add up to me.
Criticising Starmer for suggesting it; and then doing it ten days later is just another sign that there’s no plan and overarching strategy behind this response, and we’re all paying for that incompetence.
Sage advice is all about health.
If it was just health the government was concerned about they'd follow it.
But of course it isn't all about health it is finding a balance between that and keeping the economy going.
Obviously it is hard to strike a balance but clearly one is needed.
If it was SO obvious that a lockdown was going to happen, then why didn't Germany and France do it sooner - we are after all about two weeks behind them in positive cases.
I reckon all three country's had hoped that local lockdowns and people generally following the 'rules' would get them through but enough people clearly aren't following the rules - it is as simple as that really - and hence the need for national lockdowns in those three country's (and others too!).
To my mind even three/four days ago or whenever it was that all the projections showed a worse case scenario than what we had though was our worse case scenario from the meeting before - there were no plans for a national lockdown let alone a week previous when Starmer was asking for one.
The goalposts move unfortunately, nothing is set in stone and what was the right view two weeks ago now look utterly wrong now - and visa versa.
Nobody KNOWS the right thing to do, otherwise we'd all be doing it obviously.
The right thing was thought to be keep the economy going and manage things through local lock downs but that plan didn't work.
If they had gone for national lockdowns two weeks ago then no doubt the opposition party's in all three country's would be screaming about their government's doing unnecessary damage to their economies and shops and business closing down for good!
They can't win either way really can they - one man's meat is another man's poison type thing.
I'm sure the government isn't doing what they are doing just to spite Starmer, they are doing it because they believe it to be the best course of action to keep the economy going with the pandemic still high in the community.
Let's face it, it's people that are spreading the virus not the tory government.
If people just stuck to the simple rules we wouldn't need another lockdown would we?
225 Re: How is the Tory government doing? Sun Nov 01 2020, 20:29
xmiles
Jay Jay Okocha
And then there is the corruption. Dido Harding is doing nothing to make Test and Trace work but is given an additional job as Chair of the National Institute for Health Protection despite having no background in health. Perhaps the PM's Anti-Corruption Champion could investigate this - except he is Dido's husband Tory MP John Penrose.
Then we have Boris appointing Kate Bingham as head of Britain's Vaccine Taskforce despite her knowing nothing about vaccines - but her husband is a Tory minister. Last week she leaked sensitive information about government plans to some of her venture capital chums. Nothing will be done about this of course.
Then we have Boris appointing Kate Bingham as head of Britain's Vaccine Taskforce despite her knowing nothing about vaccines - but her husband is a Tory minister. Last week she leaked sensitive information about government plans to some of her venture capital chums. Nothing will be done about this of course.
226 Re: How is the Tory government doing? Sun Nov 01 2020, 23:16
okocha
El Hadji Diouf
Never known such consensus amongst all the TV News channels and the print media.
All are heavily critical of the government's handling of the second wave, not least because the opportunity has been missed to arrange a firebreak lockdown to coincide with school half term (a whole fortnight if weekends and training days either side are included).
It is in secondary schools that the rate of infection is rising fast now, so they go back tomorrow to risk the health of children and teachers unnecessarily, with an exposential rise in the number of cases the likely result.
Clear warnings, provided by expert scientists, by Labour and via precedents in neighbouring countries, were on show for all but the most pig-headed, elitist cabinet to follow, but oh no, England knows best! Everyone's out of step except us!
Ministers needed to set good examples, deliver clear messaging and an effective track and trace system. All these have been missing from the very beginnng of the pandemic here. The public are likely to follow a consistent, honest lead more readily, as they have done in New Zealand, the best example of all to guide the UK's response.
Is there anyone left who trusts the word and the competence of Boris and his ministers?
All are heavily critical of the government's handling of the second wave, not least because the opportunity has been missed to arrange a firebreak lockdown to coincide with school half term (a whole fortnight if weekends and training days either side are included).
It is in secondary schools that the rate of infection is rising fast now, so they go back tomorrow to risk the health of children and teachers unnecessarily, with an exposential rise in the number of cases the likely result.
Clear warnings, provided by expert scientists, by Labour and via precedents in neighbouring countries, were on show for all but the most pig-headed, elitist cabinet to follow, but oh no, England knows best! Everyone's out of step except us!
Ministers needed to set good examples, deliver clear messaging and an effective track and trace system. All these have been missing from the very beginnng of the pandemic here. The public are likely to follow a consistent, honest lead more readily, as they have done in New Zealand, the best example of all to guide the UK's response.
Is there anyone left who trusts the word and the competence of Boris and his ministers?
228 Re: How is the Tory government doing? Mon Nov 02 2020, 10:44
wanderlust
Nat Lofthouse
Posts : 22927
Join date : 2012-01-12
"SAGE advice is all about health" is a fair comment and the Government have to also consider the economy in making any decision - however Sir Keir cited the economy as one of the reasons why we should have taken action sooner and he turned out to be right as we now have an open-ended lockdown of at least a month as opposed to the shorter, earleir lockdown that would have helped bring down the infection rate to a manageable level.
229 Re: How is the Tory government doing? Mon Nov 02 2020, 11:08
Guest
Guest
Agree with Lust. My point was slightly different though in that they didn't even seem to think neednig national lockdown was a possibility - despite Sage advising it. Which is incredibly short sighted and yet more mixed messaging to deal with.
230 Re: How is the Tory government doing? Mon Nov 02 2020, 11:27
wanderlust
Nat Lofthouse
Posts : 22927
Join date : 2012-01-12
Point is that in allowing Covid to reach a critical mass again, the economy will get f***** over again.
Sunak is still wandering around trying to solve the problem (and make out he's a nice guy) by borrowing more than ever - literally more than ever - and the nation will be paying the bill for generations.
Sunak is still wandering around trying to solve the problem (and make out he's a nice guy) by borrowing more than ever - literally more than ever - and the nation will be paying the bill for generations.
231 Re: How is the Tory government doing? Mon Nov 02 2020, 13:09
sunlight
Andy Walker
All these Tory PM`s that shirk their duties after a third of a term because they have got the PM wage for life thing. There are loads of them. Far more than Labour ones. Bojo is itching to go, as he hates work, and has got what he wants now.
All those who voted Tory to stop immigration, well there has been way more immigration under Tory than Labour, so well done.
The Tories with Brexit have destroyed the country.
All those who voted Tory to stop immigration, well there has been way more immigration under Tory than Labour, so well done.
The Tories with Brexit have destroyed the country.
232 Re: How is the Tory government doing? Mon Nov 02 2020, 13:32
wanderlust
Nat Lofthouse
Posts : 22927
Join date : 2012-01-12
The destruction is just beginning though - we have the biggest impact of Brexit to come.sunlight wrote:All these Tory PM`s that shirk their duties after a third of a term because they have got the PM wage for life thing. There are loads of them. Far more than Labour ones. Bojo is itching to go, as he hates work, and has got what he wants now.
All those who voted Tory to stop immigration, well there has been way more immigration under Tory than Labour, so well done.
The Tories with Brexit have destroyed the country.
And that's despite Bloomberg Economic's assessment that lost economic growth (excluding Covid impact) has already cost us more than we paid into the EU in 47 years of membership.
What happens when the price hikes, supply shortages, business closures and job losses kick in next year?
Economic carnage.
On top of the bill for covid.
Whilst Boris will be creaming it in from the American lecture circuit - and his soon to be best-selling book "My Way".
233 Re: How is the Tory government doing? Mon Nov 02 2020, 13:42
Guest
Guest
Reports suggest that should Biden win on Tuesday the government will do a massive pivot and push for an EU trade deal as without Trump in office suddenly this government are ideologically very isolated.
234 Re: How is the Tory government doing? Mon Nov 02 2020, 13:43
Guest
Guest
T.R.O.Y. wrote:Reports suggest that should Biden win on Tuesday the government will do a massive pivot and push for an EU trade deal as without Trump in office they become very isolated ideologically.
235 Re: How is the Tory government doing? Mon Nov 02 2020, 15:39
Natasha Whittam
Nat Lofthouse
Reports from where?
236 Re: How is the Tory government doing? Thu Nov 05 2020, 19:30
okocha
El Hadji Diouf
Just when you thought things couldn't get any worse. Shocking and shameful!
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-54831334
The government has been criticised by the official statistics watchdog for the way it presented data to justify England's second lockdown.
The UK Statistics Authority highlighted the use of modelling at Saturday's TV briefing showing the possible death toll from Covid this winter.
It said there needed to be more transparency about data and how predictions were being made.
The projections were out of date and over-estimated deaths, it has emerged.
The projection was made weeks ago and had forecast there would be 1,000 deaths a day by the end of October when the average was actually four times less than that - a fact that was known at the time of Saturday's TV briefing.
What is more, the model had already been updated to predict a lower estimate, but this was not used in the briefing fronted by chief scientific adviser Sir Patrick Vallance and chief medical officer Prof Chris Whitty, alongside Prime Minister Boris Johnson.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-54831334
The government has been criticised by the official statistics watchdog for the way it presented data to justify England's second lockdown.
The UK Statistics Authority highlighted the use of modelling at Saturday's TV briefing showing the possible death toll from Covid this winter.
It said there needed to be more transparency about data and how predictions were being made.
The projections were out of date and over-estimated deaths, it has emerged.
The projection was made weeks ago and had forecast there would be 1,000 deaths a day by the end of October when the average was actually four times less than that - a fact that was known at the time of Saturday's TV briefing.
What is more, the model had already been updated to predict a lower estimate, but this was not used in the briefing fronted by chief scientific adviser Sir Patrick Vallance and chief medical officer Prof Chris Whitty, alongside Prime Minister Boris Johnson.
237 Re: How is the Tory government doing? Mon Nov 09 2020, 13:22
wanderlust
Nat Lofthouse
Posts : 22927
Join date : 2012-01-12
I can't see them doing a 180 but with Biden having already said that a trade deal with the UK won't be possible unless the Internal Markets Bill is rescinded a deal with the EU takes on even more significance than it already did.T.R.O.Y. wrote:Reports suggest that should Biden win on Tuesday the government will do a massive pivot and push for an EU trade deal as without Trump in office suddenly this government are ideologically very isolated.
We have little chance of getting a deal with the US that is anywhere near as strong as the EU-US trade deal - the Ways and Means Committee have made it clear we're way down their list of priorities now - so Brexit is looking increasingly like a one way ticket to financial ruin - as predicted. However I think there'll be an internal battle between those who have nothing to lose from f****** over the UK (the offshore billionaires and the extreme ideologists epitomised by Cummings) on the one hand, and the centrist Tories on the other. It mirrors the current ideological dilemma the Republicans are facing to my mind, but Trump was/is so extreme and divisive it was relatively easy for the people to show their strength at the ballot box to get rid of him whereas here we haven't got an election for a while and we haven't started to experience Brexit yet so the context is different.
This article outlines the issue the Government now faces.
238 Re: How is the Tory government doing? Tue Nov 10 2020, 14:10
wanderlust
Nat Lofthouse
Posts : 22927
Join date : 2012-01-12
Further to the above, the Lords overwhelmingly (433 to 165) voted the Internal Markets bill down yesterday. Instead they voted to remove call the clauses that relate to overriding the existing deal with the EU on Northern Ireland. Details here.
Despite this, Boris has stated he will use the Commons majority to reinstate the offending clauses - which will break international law and scupper any chance of a trade deal with Joe Biden's USA.
Bit of an awkward one for Brexiteers I guess seeing as the Leave campaign promised a raft of new international trade deals with the USA trade deal front and centre. And obviously if it's not possible to fulfill that promise (as if it ever was) the Tories have to decide which promises they will break instead.
To me it seems completely bonkers and bloody minded to take the option that will have by far the greatest negative economic impact on the UK - after all, they're selling out leave voters either way so why not at least try to salvage the economy - and at the same time retain at least a modicum of international respect?
Very noticeable that Biden still hasn't called Boris - possibly the first US President Elect not to do so?
Despite this, Boris has stated he will use the Commons majority to reinstate the offending clauses - which will break international law and scupper any chance of a trade deal with Joe Biden's USA.
Bit of an awkward one for Brexiteers I guess seeing as the Leave campaign promised a raft of new international trade deals with the USA trade deal front and centre. And obviously if it's not possible to fulfill that promise (as if it ever was) the Tories have to decide which promises they will break instead.
To me it seems completely bonkers and bloody minded to take the option that will have by far the greatest negative economic impact on the UK - after all, they're selling out leave voters either way so why not at least try to salvage the economy - and at the same time retain at least a modicum of international respect?
Very noticeable that Biden still hasn't called Boris - possibly the first US President Elect not to do so?
239 Re: How is the Tory government doing? Tue Nov 10 2020, 17:21
Sluffy
Admin
wanderlust wrote:Further to the above, the Lords overwhelmingly (433 to 165) voted the Internal Markets bill down yesterday. Instead they voted to remove call the clauses that relate to overriding the existing deal with the EU on Northern Ireland. Details here.
Despite this, Boris has stated he will use the Commons majority to reinstate the offending clauses - which will break international law and scupper any chance of a trade deal with Joe Biden's USA.
Bit of an awkward one for Brexiteers I guess seeing as the Leave campaign promised a raft of new international trade deals with the USA trade deal front and centre. And obviously if it's not possible to fulfill that promise (as if it ever was) the Tories have to decide which promises they will break instead.
To me it seems completely bonkers and bloody minded to take the option that will have by far the greatest negative economic impact on the UK - after all, they're selling out leave voters either way so why not at least try to salvage the economy - and at the same time retain at least a modicum of international respect?
Very noticeable that Biden still hasn't called Boris - possibly the first US President Elect not to do so?
Boris Johnson congratulates Joe Biden in phone call
UK Prime Minister Boris Johnson has congratulated Joe Biden on his US election win, in their first phone conversation since last week's vote.
It is believed that Mr Biden called Mr Johnson ahead of other leaders of major European countries.
The prime minister said he looked forward to "strengthening the partnership" between the US and UK and work on "our shared priorities".
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-54892505
240 Re: How is the Tory government doing? Tue Nov 10 2020, 20:05
Guest
Guest
Great news! We’re not as free as we were, thanks Priti
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