How is the Tory government doing?

It's almost as if it was a lie.

The EU has finally run out of patience with Bungling Boris and misplaced nationalism so the media is now wondering if he's prepared to make a bad deal worse.
Some left wing commentators are arguing that no deal would be better than a shit deal and are encouraging Labour to vote down any agreement fudged together at the last minute.
We do know that Farage et al will claim any deal is a sell out of Brexit if only to avoid responsibility for the economic carnage that will follow anyway, so in some ways a no deal Brexit will foreshorten the time it takes before the UK votes to rejoin.

wanderlust wrote:The EU has finally run out of patience with Bungling Boris and misplaced nationalism so the media is now wondering if he's prepared to make a bad deal worse.
Some left wing commentators are arguing that no deal would be better than a shit deal and are encouraging Labour to vote down any agreement fudged together at the last minute.
We do know that Farage et al will claim any deal is a sell out of Brexit if only to avoid responsibility for the economic carnage that will follow anyway, so in some ways a no deal Brexit will foreshorten the time it takes before the UK votes to rejoin.

Haven't you got it yet, it's all just a big game.

Both sides KNOW there has to be a deal because it is the BEST for both sides.

So it's always been a dance as to who can sell the final 'compromise' outcome to their respective country's electorate - neither side wants to appear to have had their pants pulled down over the outcome.

It was always going to be ending with a stage where the big chiefs of each side had to step in and save the day.

In the end nobody will get what they ideally wanted but both sides will sell it as them achieving a great deal for their respective sides.

I honestly doubt most of us will even notice the difference to our daily lives and even if we did, the change would be blamed because of 'Covid'

If idiots like you hadn't voted for Brexit in the first place then non of this would have even happened.

Sluffy wrote:

Haven't you got it yet, it's all just a big game.

Both sides KNOW there has to be a deal because it is the BEST for both sides.

So it's always been a dance as to who can sell the final 'compromise' outcome to their respective country's electorate - neither side wants to appear to have had their pants pulled down over the outcome.

It was always going to be ending with a stage where the big chiefs of each side had to step in and save the day.

In the end nobody will get what they ideally wanted but both sides will sell it as them achieving a great deal for their respective sides.

I honestly doubt most of us will even notice the difference to our daily lives and even if we did, the change would be blamed because of 'Covid'

If idiots like you hadn't voted for Brexit in the first place then non of this would have even happened.

Of course I get it. There are many things that the forthcoming economic collapse will be blamed upon other than the actual dumbass decision itself including Covid, poor negotiation/sell out, the EU having the temerity to make demands of their own, the cat...
If idiots like you hadn't voted for Brexit and Boris in the first place, none of this would have even happened.

wanderlust wrote:

Sluffy wrote:

Haven't you got it yet, it's all just a big game.

Both sides KNOW there has to be a deal because it is the BEST for both sides.

So it's always been a dance as to who can sell the final 'compromise' outcome to their respective country's electorate - neither side wants to appear to have had their pants pulled down over the outcome.

It was always going to be ending with a stage where the big chiefs of each side had to step in and save the day.

In the end nobody will get what they ideally wanted but both sides will sell it as them achieving a great deal for their respective sides.

I honestly doubt most of us will even notice the difference to our daily lives and even if we did, the change would be blamed because of 'Covid'

If idiots like you hadn't voted for Brexit in the first place then non of this would have even happened.

Of course I get it. There are many things that the forthcoming economic collapse will be blamed upon other than the actual dumbass decision itself including Covid, poor negotiation/sell out, the EU having the temerity to make demands of their own, the cat...
If idiots like you hadn't voted for Brexit and Boris in the first place, none of this would have even happened.

I didn't vote for either - in fact I don't vote at all, I understand what the game is all about and don't wish to be part of it.

You did though, you wrote how you voted FOR Brexit but have since felt you were conned because what the politicians for Leave said at the time wasn't what it turned out to be.

Well fancy that eh?  Politicians saying things to win votes from the gullible.

Hahaha.

You've been resentful and on a mission ever since.

The world won't stop spinning if we get a deal done or not but we will end up with one, and life as we know it will go on much as usual as far as we are concerned.

Brexit and Covid will however have consequences that will last for generations after us to deal with though - that's always been part of the 'game' too and probably has been going on since kings introduced taxation to fund what they wanted to do century's ago (mainly fight wars back in the day).

Politics and religion have a lot to be blamed for.

People just can't see it though.

Such is life I suppose.

The trouble is that the consequences of political "games" are far too important to be classed as such when it comes to their significance for our nation and the wider world in whch they operate.

Setting an example as regards behaviour should be paramount if mankind is ever to move forward from the sort of standard that Trump, for example, sets as a "worthwhile" human being.

okocha wrote:The trouble is that the consequences of political "games" are far too important to be classed as such when it comes to their significance for our nation and the wider world in which they operate.

Setting an example as regards behaviour should be paramount if mankind is ever to move forward from the sort of standard that Trump, for example, sets as a "worthwhile" human being.

That doesn't happen in the real world we live in.

Change is incremental and at a pace that it will be tolerated/accepted by the people - look a race equality - we all know racism is fundamentally wrong humanitarianly but it still is prevalent throughout the world. Religious freedom is not tolerated in many country's either.

We may be an island physically but not in terms of trade and commerce and we (nor any other developed country) simply can't simply cut ourselves off from the rest of the world by setting moral standards higher than those do - we depend on gulf oil even though some of the country's have appalling human rights violations and lack of equality for women. We are dependant on the global manufacturing power of China which necessitates us doing no more than posturing about their dreadful human rights behaviour and their devastation of wild life and global destruction of the environment. The cheap clothes and trainers we wear come from overseas 'sweatshop' country's were living wages are not paid, etc, etc, etc.

Changing minds and behaviour is like turning an oil tanker around, it takes lots of time and can only be done when the weather is right to do so.

There's a massive difference between idealism and pragmatism and most who shout the loudest are the ones who have the least idea how the world works and why.

Although I've been saying they were going to do it for months, it has taken until the final few hours before Johnson et al have finally backed down on the Internal Markets bill. Article here.

The fishing rights thing is something he can fudge as it's a relatively insignificant contributor to the economy - although it is politically significant to Brexiteers - who fail to grasp that we export most of the fish caught in our shores as we don't like them - but import nearly all of our cod and haddock and plaice etc that we actually eat.

That means that the only remaining stumbling block to getting a shit deal is the "level playing field" i.e. not offering government subsidies and incentives to give British companies an unfair advantage.

Sluffy wrote wrote:

There's a massive difference between idealism and pragmatism 

Obviously true, but that's no reason to just simply shrug our shoulders.

There are lots of current examples of ordinary civilians (and leaders) successfully doing their bit to change humanity for the better by setting an example.

okocha wrote:

Sluffy wrote wrote:

There's a massive difference between idealism and pragmatism 

Obviously true, but that's no reason to just simply shrug our shoulders.

There are lots of current examples of ordinary civilians (and leaders) successfully doing their bit to change humanity for the better by setting an example.

Individuals maybe but not on a global stage as would be required as nations would need to be able to do. For instance we abolished slavery in 1807 - and it took to 1990 for Islam to get around to it - only another 183 year latter!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_slavery_in_the_Muslim_world

Sluffy wrote:

Individuals maybe but not on a global stage as would be required as nations would need to be able to do.  For instance we abolished slavery in 1807 - and it took to 1990 for Islam to get around to it - only another 183 year latter!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_slavery_in_the_Muslim_world

And some Muslims are still advocating slavery.

In 2003, Shaykh Saleh Al-Fawzan, a member of Saudi Arabia's highest religious body, the Senior Council of Clerics, issued a fatwa claiming "Slavery is a part of Islam. Slavery is part of jihad, and jihad will remain as long there is Islam." Muslim scholars who said otherwise were "infidels". In 2016, Shaykh al-Fawzan responded to a question about taking Yazidi women as sex slaves by reiterating that "Enslaving women in war is not prohibited in Islam", he added that those who forbid enslavement are either "ignorant or infidel".

Sluffy wrote:

Individuals maybe but not on a global stage as would be required as nations would need to be able to do.  For instance we abolished slavery in 1807 - and it took to 1990 for Islam to get around to it - only another 183 year latter!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_slavery_in_the_Muslim_world

That's still progress towards a more civilised world, and better than inaction.

Sluffy wrote:

Individuals maybe but not on a global stage as would be required as nations would need to be able to do.  For instance we abolished slavery in 1807 - and it took to 1990 for Islam to get around to it - only another 183 year latter!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_slavery_in_the_Muslim_world

Given that the Prophet only came on to the scene around the year 600 does that imply that they have another 417 years to catch up and overtake us in the humanity stakes?

I'd put money on it seeing that slavery in Islamic countries is representative of global modern slavery. According to this article there are loads of countries where slavery isn't actually criminalised - including Canada and Sweden surprisingly.

Thankfully the ILO estimates that globally these days there only are around 40 million people in slavery/forced marriages - a huge number but out of a population of say 7.6 billion at least it's not as bad as the bad old days when career options were slavery or death.

okocha wrote:

Sluffy wrote:

Individuals maybe but not on a global stage as would be required as nations would need to be able to do.  For instance we abolished slavery in 1807 - and it took to 1990 for Islam to get around to it - only another 183 year latter!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_slavery_in_the_Muslim_world

That's still progress towards a more civilised world, and better than inaction.

A 183 year wait IS inaction.

We have 'modern' slavery now in many parts of the world, even in the UK,

All this fuss we've had over BLM, worldwide condemnation, footballers taking a knee and the first came crowds are allowed back into you have Millwall fans booing the gesture.

My point being that people simply don't change overnight and those in power don't give it up voluntarily.

I refer you back to my initial points I made above in that this country is not isolated in the world and it simply can't make such grand gestures without consequences that frankly the electorate would simply not be prepared to tolerate and vote to change the government at the earliest opportunity to do so.

That's the 'real' world we live in - Pride goeth before destruction, and a haughty spirit before a fall - as they say.

Sluffy wrote:

All this fuss we've had over BLM, worldwide condemnation, footballers taking a knee and the first came crowds are allowed back into you have Millwall fans booing the gesture.

Sorry, Sluffy...I couldn't make proper sense of the above, so I can't respond fully.

What I would say is that, as ever, there are lots of initiatives across the globe aimed at improving our lot (re climate change, conservation. equality, poverty, domestic violence, bullying, crime, exploitation etc).

 These movements seep into our consciousness and are taken up by others so that they grow, no matter how slowly.

There will be kickbacks and opposition to progress towards a better planet, but as long as there are folk like Attenborough, Gandhi, Martin Luther King to prick our collective consciences, mankind can survive.

We can all play our part as individuals to put pressure on the media and governments whose priorities need to change to drive progress more quickly of course but what mustn't happen is that society simply sits on its hands. 
What's that saying about good men doing nothing??!! Role models matter.

okocha wrote:

Sluffy wrote:

All this fuss we've had over BLM, worldwide condemnation, footballers taking a knee and the first came crowds are allowed back into you have Millwall fans booing the gesture.

Sorry, Sluffy...I couldn't make proper sense of the above, so I can't respond fully.

What I would say is that, as ever, there are lots of initiatives across the globe aimed at improving our lot (re climate change, conservation. equality, poverty, domestic violence, bullying, crime, exploitation etc).

 These movements seep into our consciousness and are taken up by others so that they grow, no matter how slowly.

There will be kickbacks and opposition to progress towards a better planet, but as long as there are folk like Attenborough, Gandhi, Martin Luther King to prick our collective consciences, mankind can survive.

We can all play our part as individuals to put pressure on the media and governments whose priorities need to change to drive progress more quickly of course but what mustn't happen is that society simply sits on its hands. 
What's that saying about good men doing nothing??!! Role models matter.

You couldn't understand the point I made that despite a universal, public awareness, high profile, long lasting, continuing, condemnation of racism, the first chance some people have they show their rejection of it, or at least the rejection of the gesture adopted to bring awareness of it?  You can take a horse to water but you can't make it drink.  You need to win hearts and mind before you can change behaviour.

You are in the remainder of your post moving towards the point I've made from the beginning namely that change is extremely slow and may take generations to achieve at individual level and many century's at national level.

Of the three names you mention above, two of them were assassinated by their own community, let alone influence the world universally - do you really belief for instance that say Russia and China hold dear to the principles of those you named above even now?

To say that the UK should make a world stand in respect of setting an example to the world as you did is simply ridiculous, do you really think the world even listens to us let alone follows our values?

Our views and beliefs are simply not held or shared by the most of the world so why us making a stand on something or other would make the world a better place is just our opinion and outlook on how the world should be - not theirs and therefore won't achieve anything much in real terms even if what we are saying and trying to achieve is the right one and the reality is that we have to still be a part of the world to continue to exist and not to stand alone from it and become isolated and ignored from it.

Brexit: UK and EU reach deal on Northern Ireland border checks

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-55229681

Surprise, surprise.

Another step closer in this game achieved, wonder what compromise the EU gave?

Sluffy wrote:Brexit: UK and EU reach deal on Northern Ireland border checks

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-55229681

Surprise, surprise.

Another step closer in this game achieved, wonder what compromise the EU gave?

I know you can't "win" a negotiation, but Johnson et al are all about messaging, so I'm curious as to how they'll spin yet another massive U-turn?

Obviously this one was necessary after the Ways and Means Committee gave them a rap on the knuckles.

Fishing? Might fold on this too as it's small beans, but I can't yet see how they'll get government subsidies and incentives through without reciprocal import duties. Maybe they feel that exporting to the EU can be made up in other markets - or at least they can spin it that way?

Anyone read the Gove interview after the Tories folded on the Internal Market Bill? Apparently he claimed it as a victory as they would now have no barriers to trade with Ireland/EU or the UK.
Didn't take long before it was pointed out to him that there were no barriers to trade before the referendum.

wanderlust wrote:Anyone read the Gove interview after the Tories folded on the Internal Market Bill? Apparently he claimed it as a victory as they would now have no barriers to trade with Ireland/EU or the UK.
Didn't take long before it was pointed out to him that there were no barriers to trade before the referendum.

True but they came with conditions though and the people voted for Brexit not to have those conditions anymore.

You were one of them don't forget!

You WON the referendum, this is a consequence of what you voted for.

You helped make this bed, now we've all got to lay in it whether we want to or not.