How is the Tory Shadow Government Doing?

Point of order:
I consider the current Labour party to be Thatcherite-lite and haven't voted for them in years.
Also Blair didn't bankrupt the country - he merely didn't cover his expenditure by increasing the national debt i.e. kicking the can down the road as the current shambles have.
That aside, and ignoring the ill-informed dig, I broadly agree with the points made above regarding power over ethics.

wanderlust wrote:Point of order:
I consider the current Labour party to be Thatcherite-lite and haven't voted for them in years.
Also Blair didn't bankrupt the country - he merely didn't cover his expenditure by increasing the national debt i.e. kicking the can down the road as the current shambles have.
That aside, and ignoring the ill-informed dig, I broadly agree with the points made above regarding power over ethics.

Fwiw, I was referred specifically to the 'Labour' Party and not Blair (Blair wasn't even an MP anymore, let alone PM when Brown's administration was defeated.  He quit and didn't stand in the June 2007 General Election which pre-dated the sub-prime banking crisis that led to the famous note from Liam Byrne when in his role as Deputy Chancellor of the Exchequer) and I hardly believe myself to be ill-informed based on years of your very own proclamations that everything Tory is automatically bad and everything Labour is good - and that you state that because of where you live you use your vote tactically in an attempt to get the Tory candidate out rather than support the Labour candidate who has no chance of winning - and not that you endorse (nor even support) what the candidate you do vote for, is standing for.

In a sense by doing this you to are using your vote for 'power' rather than using it to support your 'ethics'.

(Nothing wrong in doing so btw, it is all part of the game I talk about and which politics should be viewed as).

Politics has always been about power and not ethics - (as exampled by you voting to stop someone winning rather than vote for the person who you actually would want to win) - Machiavelli wrote his book on this theme just over 500 years ago (1513), so it certainly isn't anything new is it!

Sluffy wrote:

.. you state that because of where you live you use your vote tactically in an attempt to get the Tory candidate out rather than support the Labour candidate who has no chance of winning - and not that you endorse (nor even support) what the candidate you do vote for, is standing for.

In a sense by doing this you to are using your vote for 'power' rather than using it to support your 'ethics'.

Not quite true. Although I vote tactically, the options are limited here and recent Liberal candidates and manifestos have simply been more aligned with my ethical position than others. Moreover they have had better personal ethics, integrity and shown they actually care for people across society.

wanderlust wrote:
Not quite true. Although I vote tactically, the options are limited here and recent Liberal candidates and manifestos have simply been more aligned with my ethical position than others. Moreover they have had better personal ethics, integrity and shown they actually care for people across society.

I often feel drawn to the Liberal candidate even in my fairly safe Labour seat. My god, could it be happening!

wanderlust wrote:

Sluffy wrote:

.. you state that because of where you live you use your vote tactically in an attempt to get the Tory candidate out rather than support the Labour candidate who has no chance of winning - and not that you endorse (nor even support) what the candidate you do vote for, is standing for.

In a sense by doing this you to are using your vote for 'power' rather than using it to support your 'ethics'.

Not quite true. Although I vote tactically, the options are limited here and recent Liberal candidates and manifestos have simply been more aligned with my ethical position than others. Moreover they have had better personal ethics, integrity and shown they actually care for people across society.

Make your mind up!

You state you have voted tactically, now you are saying you vote Lib Dem because they best represent your views?

So be clear, are you saying you are no longer a Labour supporter and now a Lib Dem one?

I'm sure W63 will be fascinated to know if you've moved away from the Labour Party!

W63 doesn’t give a monkeys who lusty, you or anyone else votes. for. Although a Tory by belief and nature, I’d be prepared to vote for anyone who holds my values. Sadly at this moment, no party meets that criteria but purely on the basis that I have a vote and feel it my duty to use it I will in all probability vote Conservative again. Were Labour a party I could believe in I would have no problem voting for them but I know they will be a disaster for this country if/when they gain power so that isn’t a choice I’d make. This silly attitude that “they have to be better than the Tories” is both stupid and inaccurate. As I’ve stated many times, even a bad Tory government and boy is this a bad one, is still better than a current Labour one. Were the electoral system to change of course I may well vote differently but as it stands I see nothing to prevent me continuing to vote blue.

Whitesince63 wrote:W63 doesn’t give a monkeys who lusty, you or anyone else votes. for. Although a Tory by belief and nature, I’d be prepared to vote for anyone who holds my values. Sadly at this moment, no party meets that criteria but purely on the basis that I have a vote and feel it my duty to use it I will in all probability vote Conservative again. Were Labour a party I could believe in I would have no problem voting for them but I know they will be a disaster for this country if/when they gain power so that isn’t a choice I’d make. This silly attitude that “they have to be better than the Tories” is both stupid and inaccurate. As I’ve stated many times, even a bad Tory government and boy is this a bad one, is still better than a current Labour one. Were the electoral system to change of course I may well vote differently but as it stands I see nothing to prevent me continuing to vote blue.

You did realise I was joking above didn't you???

Wanderlust has tied himself up in knots again trying to wriggle away from something he had previously wrote and as a result he's left himself open to having a bit of fun poked at him, namely is he still a die hard Labourite or a new born Liberal!

I've certainly no interested in how he votes (why would I???) but I did think you a die hard Tory (this is the worst Tory government ever but still a million times better than Labour - type of thing) would have fun teasing him about his apparent seismic shift from Labour to Liberal.

Interesting article in the Guardian about water bills. 
One of Thatcher's last acts as PM was to privatise the 10 largest water companies in 1989
Since privatisation the Water companies have paid shareholders £53 BILLION in dividends.
That equates almost the total amount of debt they currently have (£60 billion)
A good proportion of the water bills we get today is used not to repair pipes, build new reservoirs or clean up water discharge into our rivers and beaches but to service these (rising) debts - in my area (Anglian Water) it's 24% of the bill.

CLICK HERE to read the article and by entering your postcode you can find out how much of your water bill goes towards paying dividends.

I am being a bit of an 'I told you so' here but I'm happy to do so on this occasion because I took an awful lot of shit at the time from one or two on here when I pointed out that any message sent on a phone has both a 'sender' and a 'receiver' and if Boris Johnson (or anyone else as in this case pertaining to Penny Mordaunt) deletes them / loses their phone / whatever, then the 'receiver' will still retain a copy!

Meaning that nothing can be lost unless both sender and receiver act together to deliberately delete everything.

Fwiw Hancock handed his phone to his ghost writer who promptly passed it on to the newspapers and nothing dodgy from Hancock, Johnson or anybody else was found on it - just as I had predicted.

This from todays news states how this still remains true.

So can WhatsApp messages simply vanish?

Chats are stored separately on each person's device.

So if Person A and Person B are exchanging messages, then both of their phones will have a full, and separate, record of their conversation.

Messages can only be deleted for everybody up to 48 hours after they are sent - and a note appears for all participants saying this has happened.

But any messages older than that can only be deleted by someone on their own phone.

So if Person A deletes a message that is more than two days old, Person B will still have it.

It can only be deleted from Person B's phone by someone who physically picks up that phone and gets into their WhatsApp account.

There's also a feature called disappearing messages.

But that feature only launched in the UK in November 2020 and messages sent before this was switched on would not vanish.

Boris Johnson said that he factory reset his phone. This would not affect the record of his conversation with Penny Mordaunt that was stored on her phone, even if he no longer had it.

He also said he changed his number. Again - whether he started a new WhatsApp account or transferred his old one to the new number, this would not affect the data stored on Ms Mordaunt's phone.

Finally, he mentioned a WhatsApp server outage at the time. An outage at WhatsApp HQ might prevent message sending, but it would not affect the content of messages already sent.

WhatsApp messages are never stored on WhatsApp servers.

If they are backed up, they will be stored on either Apple or Google servers, depending on whether the phone is iPhone or Android.

And they are stored using end-to-end encryption, meaning that only the sender and recipient's devices can read them.

Even if WhatsApp or someone else were to access them, they would not be able to tamper with them.


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-67780595

Wtf were they thinking???

Sluffy wrote:Wtf were they thinking???

My mum phoned me up to tell me about this.

It’s just unfucking believable.

I’m so glad these arseholes are now out of power!

We all accept the previous Tory governments, not just the latest one we’re garbage, so isn’t it about time we started judging how the new Labour government is doing or are we just going to allow them to blame the Tory’s for everything they cock up themselves. They’re already moaning about the finances even though they’ve always had full view of them through the OBR but conveniently fail to mention that both employment is lower, inflation is lower and 8nterest rates are set to come down plus we are the fastest growing economy in the G7. It’s already disingenuous to attempt to criticise the Tory’s for the costs of the Covid and Ukraine problems, which had they followed Labours calls to lock down longer would have been much worse. So let’s see how they fare shall we and from what we’ve seen so far the damage is only just starting.

They've been in power for 2 weeks! Get a grip! It is going to take a while to sort out the mess left by the Tories but at least the grown ups are in charge now.

Yes I agree Norpig. My mate has been banging on like this as Labour are still going through everything at the moment and he said they are not implementing the border/channel policy quick enough with regards to the boat people coming across.

He also said the BBC News was full of corrupt fuckers and it was a load of shit what Yvette Cooper came out with yesterday (I think it was) with regards to the £10bn cost the conservatives hid that she came out with in the houses of Parliament in regards to the Rawanda plan.

I think all conservative supporters are in denial about it all!!!

karlypants wrote:Yes I agree Norpig. My mate has been banging on like this as Labour are still going through everything at the moment and he said they are not implementing the border/channel policy quick enough with regards to the boat people coming across.

He also said the BBC News was full of corrupt fuckers and it was a load of shit what Yvette Cooper came out with yesterday (I think it was) with regards to the £10bn cost the conservatives hid that she came out with in the houses of Parliament in regards to the Rawanda plan.

I think all conservative supporters are in denial about it all!!!

No denial at all Karly but in the two weeks they’ve been in power they’ve scrapped all the oil licences for the North Sea which will cost not only jobs but serious money buying oil from elsewhere, scrapped the Rwanda plan which although flawed would surely have been better to keep and review given the money spent on it. They’re obviously planning to give asylum to the 70,000 migrants currently residing in hotels, Bibby barge and the former army camps as well as letting out 40,000 criminals to free up space in prisons and all these are just for starters. We haven’t even got onto the reinstatement of strike measures which will be used by the unions to push for even bigger pay rises. All this in two weeks? Like I said, just wait for the carnage because you ain’t seen nothing yet of the f—k up to come.

If Labour is so bad then why did the country elect them in a landslide victory giving them 412 seats and a  majority of 174.

Why was it is the worst Conservative result in terms of seats in history, with the party on 121.

Why did the person YOU personally help to foist upon us as Prime Minister lose her seat of which she had held previously with a majority of over 26,000 (one of the biggest losses ever in the history of the country) and elect in a LABOUR MP.

Reform is your natural party - you're too dumb to even realise that, but don't worry if  Badenoch or Braverman becomes the next Tory leader then they will merge with Reform and be the UK's equivalent of Trumps Republican Party and you'll be as happy as a in in shit then.

This video says it all about the Truss and her bonkers Libertarian ideology - everybody else's fault but theirs...

But there was, though, one more question it felt important to ask there and then.

Did Ms Truss want to say sorry to the people of Norfolk?

Ms Truss didn’t answer.

I asked once more. Did she have a message for supporters of the Conservatives? Or to the country?

"I’ve answered your questions. Thank you," Ms Truss replied.

In the tiny entrance way of the leisure centre, her staff had gathered, most wearing a blue rosette with Liz Truss’ name in the middle. She stopped to hug each of them. Some looked devastated, all looked shocked.

Then, with a turn, ahead of everyone else, Ms Truss stepped out into the morning. Away from the count, away from her colleagues and, for now, away from her political career.

I made one last effort to ask if she had anything to say to voters. There was no reply.

Ms Truss climbed into the car. A security officer just beside me shut the door firmly behind her, and a small group of us looked on as the two vehicles drove out of sight.

Historic moments come in many forms. This one played out on the badminton courts of King's Lynn, as a former prime minister lost her seat - In the tiny entrance way of the leisure centre, her staff had gathered, most wearing a blue rosette with Liz Truss’ name in the middle. She stopped to hug each of them. Some looked devastated, all looked shocked.

Then, with a turn, ahead of everyone else, Ms Truss stepped out into the morning. Away from the count, away from her colleagues and, for now, away from her political career.

I made one last effort to ask if she had anything to say to voters. There was no reply.

Ms Truss climbed into the car. A security officer just beside me shut the door firmly behind her, and a small group of us looked on as the two vehicles drove out of sight.

Historic moments come in many forms. This one played out on the badminton courts of King's Lynn, as a former prime minister lost her seat - and had little to say to voters or the country she’d once led.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/crgrz2d77lgo

Sluffy wrote:If Labour is so bad then why did the country elect them in a landslide victory giving them 412 seats and a  majority of 174.

Why was it is the worst Conservative result in terms of seats in history, with the party on 121.

Why did the person YOU personally help to foist upon us as Prime Minister lose her seat of which she had held previously with a majority of over 26,000 (one of the biggest losses ever in the history of the country) and elect in a LABOUR MP.

Reform is your natural party - you're too dumb to even realise that, but don't worry if  Badenoch or Braverman becomes the next Tory leader then they will merge with Reform and be the UK's equivalent of Trumps Republican Party and you'll be as happy as a in in shit then.

This video says it all about the Truss and her bonkers Libertarian ideology - everybody else's fault but theirs...

But there was, though, one more question it felt important to ask there and then.

Did Ms Truss want to say sorry to the people of Norfolk?

Ms Truss didn’t answer.

I asked once more. Did she have a message for supporters of the Conservatives? Or to the country?

"I’ve answered your questions. Thank you," Ms Truss replied.

In the tiny entrance way of the leisure centre, her staff had gathered, most wearing a blue rosette with Liz Truss’ name in the middle. She stopped to hug each of them. Some looked devastated, all looked shocked.

Then, with a turn, ahead of everyone else, Ms Truss stepped out into the morning. Away from the count, away from her colleagues and, for now, away from her political career.

I made one last effort to ask if she had anything to say to voters. There was no reply.

Ms Truss climbed into the car. A security officer just beside me shut the door firmly behind her, and a small group of us looked on as the two vehicles drove out of sight.

Historic moments come in many forms. This one played out on the badminton courts of King's Lynn, as a former prime minister lost her seat - In the tiny entrance way of the leisure centre, her staff had gathered, most wearing a blue rosette with Liz Truss’ name in the middle. She stopped to hug each of them. Some looked devastated, all looked shocked.

Then, with a turn, ahead of everyone else, Ms Truss stepped out into the morning. Away from the count, away from her colleagues and, for now, away from her political career.

I made one last effort to ask if she had anything to say to voters. There was no reply.

Ms Truss climbed into the car. A security officer just beside me shut the door firmly behind her, and a small group of us looked on as the two vehicles drove out of sight.

Historic moments come in many forms. This one played out on the badminton courts of King's Lynn, as a former prime minister lost her seat - and had little to say to voters or the country she’d once led.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/crgrz2d77lgo

...and then she flew off to America to support Trump in his hour of need. She'd been booked to address an audience but nobody turned up. Boris did somewhat better with a "crowd" of 10 people. Farage - Trump's "long time buddy" - was not given an audience with Desperate Don so flounced around trying to look interesting until he was collared by a British journo who questioned why the hell he was in America just days after signing up to look after the interests of the people of Clacton. All very sad.

Sluffy, Labour are so bad that only one third of electors voted for them producing a totally freak result which is why they ended up with a crazy 412 seats. I can well understand people turning to reform as well as those who didn’t vote at all but the huge number of Labours 174 majority are now marginals with paper thin majorities which they’ll probably lose at the next election as sense returns. After five years of incompetent, naive and destructive rule by Labour people will rue the day they let revenge replace common sense in voting Red so however bad the Tory’s have been in almost every regard over the last 14 years voters will turn to them again next time as sanity returns but only as long as the party regroups under strong and credible leader. Sadly I don’t see one yet and that’s my main concern.

Whitesince63 wrote:Sluffy, Labour are so bad that only one third of electors voted for them producing a totally freak result which is why they ended up with a crazy 412 seats. I can well understand people turning to reform as well as those who didn’t vote at all but the huge number of Labours 174 majority are now marginals with paper thin majorities which they’ll probably lose at the next election as sense returns. After five years of incompetent, naive and destructive rule by Labour people will rue the day they let revenge replace common sense in voting Red so however bad the Tory’s have been in almost every regard over the last 14 years voters will turn to them again next time as sanity returns but only as long as the party regroups under strong and credible leader. Sadly I don’t see one yet and that’s my main concern.

Sorry for the late reply, I saw your post at the time but had things to do and forgot about it until I clicked on the thread to post to video clip about Liz Truss below - quite funny and apt I thought.

Anyway, you are sort of right and wrong at the same time.

Yes Labour and Liberals won all those seats (many which are now marginals as you say) because the Conservative vote was split due to many Tory voters voting Reform.

However what sort of a deal (if any?) will the next Conservative leader make with Farage?

And if a deal is done would (moderate) tory voters, vote for extreme right wing polices?

I asked you not so long ago if you would vote Reform (after all, you are blindly following their polices albeit unknowingly) but you stated you would never vote for Reform!

Whether we like it or not the world is moving towards nationalism (eg MAGA), dismantling of government, anti-immigration and climate change denial polices on the one hand (Trumpism, Le Pen, Putin, etc, etc) or rejection of it and the fight to retain democracy, anti-authoritarianism, human rights and a civil, liberal, secular and free society.

Ukraine is fighting a war to save theirs right now, France/Macron gambled everything, called an election and won, to keep theirs, the country overwhelmingly rejected the Conservatives (blame Farage for that - he didn't have to have Reform candidates in every constituency - he did that in order to DEFEAT the Conservatives and gain power for himself - in order to tell them if you want a deal with me then you dance to my tune in future).

Even Biden went under the bus in an attempt to stop Trump.

Anyway a week is a long time in politics. Five years ago I believed Boris majority of 80 seats would keep him in power for two terms - I never dreamt he could piss it all away due to his behaviour. So who knows what the world will be like in 2029 and the next General Election.

One thing I will guarantee though, the climate will be that much more fucked five years and you can deny it as much as you want but the science proves beyond any doubt that the damage has already been done and won't be going back to how we've known it during our lifetimes.